[speechlesstx]

You two are obviously clueless about this, not all corporations are for profit and incorporation as a non-profit provides clear legal benefits and protections to a church. Give it up guys, a church is NOT a business, but thanks for showing me how little regard you have for our rights.

[excon]

Hello tal:

Why are they not tax exempt as a church is? Are they non profit, or for profit.

The tax code is complex. But, how it deals with a church, is NOT.. The very FIRST sentence in my tax code books, is this: "Church's are exempt". Then it moves on to other business.

What that tells me, is that church's don't have to ASK the government for permission to BE exempt, because they ALREADY are. But, once they ASK the federal government to RECOGNIZE them as a church, they GIVE the government the ABILITY to DECIDE what a church IS and what it ISN'T.

Additionally, as I said before, once they ASK the government to give them corporate status, they GIVE the government the ABILITY to treat them as a CORPORATION. Who's surprised at that?

Excon

[speechlesstx]

Hello tal:
The tax code is complex. But, how it deals with a church, is NOT.. The very FIRST sentence in my tax code books, is this: "Church's are exempt". Then it moves on to other business.

What that tells me, is that church's don't have to ASK the government for permission to BE exempt, because they ALREADY are. But, once they ASK the federal government to RECOGNIZE them as a church, they GIVE the government the ABILITY to DECIDE what a church IS and what it ISN'T.

Additionally, as I said before, once they ASK the government to give them corporate status, they GIVE the government the ABILITY to treat them as a CORPORATION. Who's surprised at that?

Excon

What part of "non-profit corporation" and "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" is too difficult for you to comprehend?

My church is incorporated and I assure you no one but and Tal confuse it with a business.

Why and How to Incorporate Your Church

If your church or ministry is already incorporated, many states require annual paperwork to maintain your corporate status. This includes submitting a simple annual report to the Secretary of State’s office.

When an organization becomes incorporated, that means it legally holds the same rights and responsibilities as an individual. There are many reasons churches and other ministries should consider incorporation. The most important is to protect individual members from personal liability associated with the negligent actions of fellow members.

Other benefits of incorporation include:

Clarification of the ministry’s purpose, procedures, and vision.
Eligibility to apply for and receive grants through federal or faith-based organizations and foundations.
Eligibility to receive special mailing rates and other discounts from vendors.

What are the risks churches face by not incorporating?

According to Richard R. Hammar, author of Church Law & Tax Report, “Members of an unincorporated association are individually liable for [wrongful] acts of agents or employees of the association if the [act] is committed within the scope of their authority.”

This means all members of an unincorporated church can legally be found responsible for the negligent or criminal acts of one of their fellow members.

Also see WHY SHOULD A CHURCH INCORPORATE?

A church almost has to incorporate to protect its members and operate these days, but I don't expect you to get it, you're totally convinced that incorporation gives the state sovereign power over the church and that celibate nuns should be forced buy abortifacients and contraceptives, which is so ridiculous I cannot believe a smart guy like you would lend your name to defending it.

[excon]

Hello again, Steve:

Oh, I understand what the suits and the well paid CPA's say. I just happen to disagree. I also understand what the tax code says.

Look. I'm on your side. I believe that if a church doesn't want to PAY for contraceptives at all, for ANYBODY, EVER, it ABSOLUTELY has that right under the First Amendment...

But, a hospital ISN'T a church. I KNOW that because there ARE hospitals IN the market to make a profit, and they're NOT church's. Besides, there's NO market for a church. There's a BIG market for hospitals.. That's a major LEGAL distinction.

Oh, a church owned hospital does churchly things. And, it probably HAS a chapel inside... But, it ISN'T a church.

Plus, when a church asks for certain government "protections", that you amply outlined above, those protections don't come without a price... If you want the government to PROTECT you, then it's Going to regulate you. You can't have it ONLY one way.

Over to you winger.

excon

[speechlesstx]

Hello again, Steve:

Oh, I understand what the suits and the well paid CPA's say. I just happen to disagree. I also understand what the tax code says.

Look. I'm on your side. I believe that if a church doesn't want to PAY for contraceptives at all, for ANYBODY, EVER, it ABSOLUTELY has that right under the First Amendment...

But, a hospital ISN'T a church. I KNOW that because there ARE hospitals IN the market to make a profit, and they're NOT church's. Besides, there's NO market for a church. There's a BIG market for hospitals.. That's a major LEGAL distinction.

Oh, a church owned hospital does churchly things. And, it probably HAS a chapel inside... But, it ISN'T a church.

The constitution does not say anything about freedom of church, it says Congress shall make no laws prohibiting the free exercise of religion. The church is not now nor has it ever been singing and reading the bible inside a church building, but you know that. You don't get to redefine what the church and religion to suit your agenda, bucko.

You and Tal are just deflecting from the point that it's freakin' ridiculous to force nuns to buy coverage for contraceptives and abortifiacients. What the hell is wrong with you people for doing and defending such a thing?

Plus, when a church asks for certain government "protections", that you amply outlined above, those protections don't come without a price... If you want the government to PROTECT you, then it's Going to regulate you. You can't have it ONLY one way.

That is so much BS I don't even know where to begin. A church does not cede it's first amendment rights by incorporating. Period.

[NeedKarma]

it's freakin' ridiculous to force nuns to buy coverage for contraceptives and abortifiacients.

Not all employees at those hospitals are nuns, are they?

[tomder55]

It's freakin ridiculous to force ANYONE to buy coverage for contraceptives and abortifacients.

[speechlesstx]

Not all employees at those hospitals are nuns, are they?

It doesn't matter, the first amendment was not abolished by Obamacare.

[smoothy]

The avaerage Democrat apparently can't afford condoms what with the price of iPhones and their monthly cell phone charges and the price of Latte's at Starbucks..

[speechlesstx]

it's freakin ridiculous to force ANYONE to buy coverage for contraceptives and abortifacients.

Absolutely true, but one would think even a liberal would get how freakin' ridiculous it is to force nuns to do so.

[talaniman]

The constitution does not say anything about freedom of church, it says Congress shall make no laws prohibiting the free exercise of religion.

You can practice all the religion you want, but you cannot take away the protection of law, nor the right to practice their own religion from the employee. To deny employees the right to have contraceptives is a violation of their rights, but of course righties and conservatives want religion above the rights of others.

When you hire employees you become an employer, must pay that employee, and give them full benefits under the law. The claim that incorporation to protect itself from the liability of it's members is BOGUS, unless they had knowledge of the wrongdoing. In addition there are far better options under the law to relieve that liability, such as a background check or screening all hires, that's what employers do to avoid liabilities, not deny rights.

Surprised no female has sued you for denying her the right to have a full package of benefits under the law. This is all about getting out of your DUTY to ensure your employees THEIR lawful rights. LOL, you just want the right to get between a female and her doctor. And think you can do it on the cheap.

Sad you think you are going to push the boundaries of your rights and not be pushed back on. Guess we wait for the court process to play out to see who's right, and what kind of rights we have.

[talaniman]

Insurance benefits are not for the church, but for the people they hire to perform a service. It doesn't matter what your beliefs are, all that matters are what the rights of those you employ are.

Seems the citizen needs protection from the church, not the other way around.

[smoothy]

Insurance benefits are not for the church, but for the people they hire to perform a service. It doesn't matter what your beliefs are, all that matters are what the rights of those you employ are.

Seems the citizen needs protection from the church, not the other way around.

They are free to seek employment elsewhere... if they don't agree with what the church or that employer wishes to provide.

I suppose if you go work for some Islamic group... you get to sue them for not serving pork Bar-B-que in the caffeteria?

[talaniman]

Contrary to popular belief, they can seek redress in court also. They don't have to serve the church, or put up with religious stuff to have a job.

[smoothy]

This isn't a Mission in rural Africa... there are other jobs...

[talaniman]

Good you will have someplace to go when they shut your job down.

[NeedKarma]

The avaerage Democrat apparently can't afford condoms what with the price of iPhones and their monthly cell phone charges and the price of Latte's at Starbucks..

Posts don't get more ignorant or bigoted than this.

[smoothy]

Good you will have someplace to go when they shut your job down.

I can walk half a block down the street tomorrow and start at $120K a year... standing offer from the CEO and owner of the company.

[speechlesstx]

You can practice all the religion you want, but you cannot take away the protection of law, nor the right to practice their own religion from the employee. To deny employees the right to have contraceptives is a violation of their rights, but of course righties and conservatives want religion above the rights of other.

There is no constitutional right to contraceptives. Deal with it.

Funny how you see rights that don't exist but disregard those which are clearly enumerated, another example of what this thread is about.

[talaniman]

There is no constitutional right to contraceptives. Deal with it.

There is a law they must be included in a minimum health insurance package, deal with it.