[classyT]

Freeman4,

You know I appreciate your sharing. And I completely agree that we should be taught by the LORD. When you read my posts you must know I have been influenced by people in the past. I admit it. I have. Having said that, I do not lay hands suddenly on NO man. I make sure that what I believe is in line with scripture.

[dwashbur]

John never said there would be many antichrist in revelation

Correct, he didn't say it... in Revelation. He said it in his first epistle, which I already quoted in this thread.

"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour."

I also said this about that verse:

They had heard that "THE antichrist" was coming; John corrects this misperception by telling them that there are many antichrists, not just one. There is no "THE antichrist." John wrote this verse specifically to counter that notion.

Also, I would love for anyone to show me a single place where the 666 character is called "antichrist."

I'm still waiting for a response, from you or anyone else.

[freeman4]

I'll have to admit, I am not for sure on this one specific anti-Christ thing myself. I know that anyone who opposes Christ is considered to be-anti-Christ, or that is against Christ.

Have to look at this more.

[classyT]

If NERO really WAS the antichrist... ( he is certainly a type) then why wasn't he revealed as THE antichrist? We should KNOW he was... we don't. Hitler also was a TYPE of antichrist.

Paul said in 2 Thess. 2:3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Sorry... he has NOT been revealed. He is coming...

[dwashbur]

Once again, there is no "THE antichrist" in the Bible. Paul's "man of sin" may or may not be such a character, we don't know. You keep talking about types, but that's not what John said. He said there's no such thing, rather, there are lots of antichrists. If you don't think that's what it says, I'm open to an alternate explanation.

That's part of the problem: people take a word like "antichrist" and assume that "man of sin" and "beast" and "666" and all that refer to the same thing and that it has to be future. Nothing in the text requires any of it.

[freeman4]

In 11 Thess. He is called " the lawless one".

2Th 2:3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness [fn] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

2Th 2:4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

I do not believe it could be any clearer that there will be one specific individual who will be the end time " anti-Christ" and when that time comes we will know it.

[dwashbur]

I would hope I'm familiar with the passage, considering I already referenced it. But there are a few problems with it.

1. It doesn't say anything about an antichrist. It speaks of a "man of lawless" who wants to be God. There have been plenty of those. In the mid 20th century there was a guy, I think in Pennsylvania, who simply claimed to be God. He had several followers. For all we know, Paul was talking about him. The comments are so vague that they could mean anything. Why do you supposed Paul was so vague? Because we're not supposed to speculate! We have much more important things to do.

2. This could not have been literal, for one simple reason: less than a generation after it was written, the Romans destroyed the temple. So there is no way for such an individual to set himself up in the temple of God because there is no such temple. And don't tell me it's going to be rebuilt; that is nothing but rampant speculation based on nothing.

3. If this were talking about some eschatological "antichrist," it's clear that Paul expected his readers to be on earth to see it when it happened. He talks about this supposed individual as well as the Lord's coming and our gathering to Him as being something believers will see AFTER this character does his thing. So not only is it vague to the point of uselessness, built on the idea of a structure that no longer exists and isn't likely to again, but it also blasts the pretribulational rapture idea to pieces. Paul fully expected his readers, whether in his time or in the future, to experience these things on earth before Jesus returns.

4. It also speaks of a "rebellion." But what does that mean? In a word, nothing. There have been rebellions in every generation on every continent since the rise of Christianity, and I'm sure there are more to come. So what's he talking about? A Renaissance Catholic might have looked at this and considered the Reformation to be this rebellion. Some people look at certain political hot-button issues today and think maybe that stuff is the rebellion. What's the bottom line?

WE DON'T KNOW.

We have no idea what this passage actually means. Most likely, it was based on something Paul told them while he was there, but we don't know what it was. For some reason, too many Christians think that "I don't know" isn't an acceptable answer. But the Bible is full if I-don't-knows. Micah 6:8: do justice, love mercy, and walk something-or-other with your God. Most translations say "walk humbly" but the truth is, we have no idea what the Hebrew word there means. The Septuagint says "be prepared to walk with your God." We go with "humbly" because the word bears some superficial resemblance to another word that means "humble" but that's nothing more than a guess. The word there is a true I-don't-know. Why are we so afraid of those?

Sorry, but this passage doesn't make your case. And it says nothing at all about any "THE antichrist" nor does it have any clear ties with Revelation 13 or anything else. It's just sort of hanging out there in space for theologians to argue over.

[freeman4]

1. It doesn't say anything about an antichrist. It speaks of a "man of lawless" who wants to be God. There have been plenty of those. In the mid 20th century there was a guy, I think in Pennsylvania, who simply claimed to be God. He had several followers. For all we know, Paul was talking about him. The comments are so vague that they could mean anything. Why do you supposed Paul was so vague? Because we're not supposed to speculate! We have much more important things to do.

You quote the above.

Something is wrong with ones thinking if they do not understand that anyone contrary to what God has to say , if it be MAN OF SIN or what is ANTI- GOD- ANTI CHRIST- I do not think they understand anything about God.

[classyT]

Dave,
I don't try to figure out who this man is going to be. I have no clue and I just personally believe he is alive and well right now.

I am not sure why you find the idea of the temple being rebuilt so outrageous. You think it is speculation based on nothing. I believe God's word says it will happen and that is enough for me. You know when John Darby a dispensationalist lived back in the 1800's the Lord showed him these truths and there was NOTHING he could see to back up what the Lord showed him. I mean... NOTHING. He believed it by faith. John Darby never lived to see Israel back in the land let alone the knowledge explosion, technology and the likes. I am sure he was laughed at plenty and told his thoughts were based on nothing. It didn't change truth? Israel became a nation in a day. Therefore I disagree that believing the temple will be rebuilt is speculation based on NOTHING. Obviously Israel needed to be back in the land. One down... I don't know how and I don't know when but take it to the bank it will happen. If God who flung the stars into existence ( kind of an incidental, by the way statement in Genesis) he can orchestrate the temple being rebuilt. No big deal for him.

As far as the bible verse you Micah, I have never heard that no one can properly translate it. But I think it is a stretch for you to compare one word to Paul's letters and endtime teaching. Paul said over and over again "I would not have you ignorant brethren" . He wanted us in the know, he even used that pharse in thessalonians when I believe he is talking about the rapture. In in any event, I don't know everything for sure. But the Lord gave us his word and I believe he WANTS us to know what is coming. What good does it do for him to give us his written word if NO ONE can ever know what it means. It isn't of value. But that isn't what God says about his word. He states he places his WORD above his name. He goes so far as to say heaven and earth will pass away but NOT HIS WORD. I may not have all the answers, you may not have all the answers but they are IN there.

[dwashbur]

Frankly, Darby is a joke. Genuine biblical scholars tend to laugh at him. And dispensationalism has more holes in it than the average slice of Swiss cheese.

As for Israel, let's be real. The "nation" that is there now is an artificial construct that in no way resembles anything in the Bible. Even a lot of Jewish scholars don't consider it the Israel that God envisioned. Supposedly, the return of Israel should be a miracle of biblical proportions, but we all know that's not what happened. What's there now came about as a result of a lot of politicking backed up by a war. Some miracle. Even assuming that the dispensationalists are correct and there's still stuff to be done with "Israel," what we're seeing over there right now is NOT what's envisioned in the Bible.

Add the fact that they're wrong, and "Israel" in the New Testament includes believers like us whether Jew or Gentile and the promises to Israel have been fulfilled in us, and what's left? Not much. What else you got?

[freeman4]

With all that is happening now in this world and in our Nation people are still sound asleep. It does not matter to me if one wants to believe that America is part of the Lost House of Israel or not. That will not stop what is going to happen to our Nation from happening.

If one is blinded from this fact then so be it and let it take it's course because it is going to anyway. The main stream media has people so confused they do not know which end is up. If they do not print what they are told to print they will not have a Job.

The Government is doing their best to shut down the News sources that give the under ground news, news you can not get anywhere else.

If one can not see the dangers larking in the Middle East and probably will not stop until all is on fire over their.

So individuals need to get their heads out of the sand and prepare for what is coming. When the devastation of the hurricane hit in our area all the stores run out of food, no Gas, nothing. I know I managed one. People had no food, water was gone. But what if this were to happen Nation wide, are you prepared, or are you going to let God bring you water and food. Believe me, we are heading in that direction and it want be to long

If one has any children they need to think of them for they get hungry to. I know I will get the third degree from this but it had to be said. God gives us all type warning on this but we do not listen. I hope some do now.

[gromitt82]

Since you people apparently like to discuss whether is right or wrong to literally interpreting the Holy Bible I'm going to suggest a different subject altogether to what you have been discussing so far, although, in my humble opinion, it is quite as relevant bearing in mind the many times it appears in the Books.
I am referring to the mention the “Son of Man is sitting at the right of the Mighty One”
I am quoting herewith four fragments from The New International Version of the Holy Bible, although there are others of which I give below the references:
Psalm 101.1 -

Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."
Matthew 26:64

“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven

Ephesians 1:20
“he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms…”
1 Peter 3:22

“who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him”.
Others:
Acts 2:34-35 and 7:55-56; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:3 and 1:13
The point I am driving at is that if we must literally interpret Jesus' words according to the Bible, we must be thinking, in accordance with our limited understanding of Heavenly matters, of a physical Jesus sitting next to God's right hand side, Who, in turn, should also be some sort of physical imponent figure dominating the entire Universe.
This image, in my opinion, fits quite well in the Greek mythology where we can see a powerful and bearded Zeus, looking like a greek athlet, with his wife Hera sitting next to him, and ruling the world from Mount Olympus. Except that in my wildest dreams I cannot visualize our Creator, our True and Only God, as a perfect representation of man and much less, sitting in some kind of golden throne...
We have no idea of what God may look like. Most probably God is some inimaginable or abstrat concept our mind is completely unable to comprehend and, consequently, only when we shall be able to uderstand IT we shall also understand ITS Kingdom and what ITS Glory actuallly means.
But when the Gospels were written the idea of God had to be transmitted to the people of those days (mostly completely illiterate), in a way they could assimilate it. And this is probably why the Bible, in Genesis 1:27, says that “God created man I his own image”... and why, in general, all other religions depict their gods with human figures.
Muslims, however, consider –and I think they are right- God cannot be represented by any image; doing it would be some sort of idolatry. In fact, some Protestants confessions also ban God images in their temples.
I would therefore like to see what you have to say re. the above subject. Are we looking like God or this is how the idea of God could be made understandable to people 5000 years ago?
Gromitt82

[dwashbur]

With all that is happening now in this world and in our Nation people are still sound asleep.

You say this a lot, but don't really give any details. So I ask: such as?

[classyT]

Gromitt,

I believe the bible is clear that God is a spirit. Jesus said in Luke 24:39 that a spirit didn't have flesh and bones.

Also the apostle Paul wrote several times that God is invisible. In fact in 1 Timothy 6:16 He said no man has seen God or CAN see God. So God as God we will never see. BUT we CAN see him in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. He himself said if you have seen him you have seen the Father.

It is recorded that we were made in the image of God. Obiviously it isn't a physical image because God is a Spirit. BUT he did give man a spirit. Adam was made without sin; he was completely righteous just like God God gave Adam intellect. He also has made Adam like him socially and they enjoyed a relationship. So there are many ways in which man was made in the image of God... it just wasn't the physical image of God.

[classyT]

Dave,

Darby was a brilliant man... far from joke but you are entitled to your opinion. What are all the holes you speak of by the way.

[gromitt82]

ClassyT
I quite agree with you and, consequently, we both understand the Bible has to be interpreted bearing in mind when it was written and what it means, NOT what it says literally.
Thanks
Gromitt82

[gromitt82]

Freeman,
Quote:

God gives us all type warning on this but we do not listen. I hope some do now.

It is quite possible that God may be warning us of a doomsday to come one of this day. It is also possible that men pay no attention to such warnings as, usually, throughout History, men has paid little attention to God, considering how men have been behaving for the last 7000 years.

However, what is going on now in Egypt is far less important (in terms of casualties) that what has been going on in Syria, or Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Korea, or Viet Nam or durng WWII. And I'm not bearing in mind other conflicts such as Darfur, Cambodja, Rwanda, Somalia, where actual genocides have taken place before the general indifference of the 1st world.

As I said before, if God has been warning us all these times it is rather obvious that we have paid little attention to God.

Gromitt82

[Wondergirl]

general indifference of the 1st world.

I don't agree that the first world has been indifferent. I know churches and other charities as well as national organizations have asked for and gotten donations and food and clothing for survivors, some people have been able to get into the country to give hands-on aid, but too often the governments or military (whoever is in charge at the moment) of these war-torn countries will not permit help to be given and will do everything they can to misdirect or will even claim any financial aid for themselves (e.g. Haiti). And as far as offering military assistance, that's any even larger problem.

[InfoJunkie4Life]

God is perfect. I would invite you to examine yourself before the Lord through prayer and study. Please be careful not to examine the circumstance of your life or that of those around you.

A fire in your heart to serve God is a great thing. It is something that often comes with fresh belief and often sadly lost as one settles into life. The problem is that many do not know how to serve their Father, many find it easy to throw money at the church and say you do it, or follow a church's set of events centered on filling those slyly placed coffers. True service in the Lord starts first with obedience to Christ (John 12:26), whose life we can find outlined in scripture. The study of scripture can lead you to obedience in your life. However, I do point out that the study of scripture may give you direction, moreover through action will you be blessed in the Lord. (James 1:22 , Luke 11:28 )

How then can we know service, except through obedience; and obedience except through His commandments? What you must first must focus on is the most central concept of the bible, second only to the salvation through Christ; it is the greatest commandment given: To love God with your all, and to love all man as yourself. (Matthew 22) I know many do not know how to love, it seems illusive and undefined, but we are to love as God loves us (John 13:34), and the bible puts it so simply in 1 Corinthians 13 and Galatians 5. Furthermore the bible commands us, as a measure of love (for Christ died for us), to continually tell others about Christ and what He has offered them. (Mark 16)

These commandments alone give us a lifetime of work and opportunity. Why then should we worry about this and that when God has provided us with a simple plan. I would offer a suggestion, if you time to worry about more than these things, consider yourself continually. You know what is right and wrong, for each second are you choosing wisely, and are you honoring God? These thoughts and their remedies will fill all your time if you let them, and they further the work of our Lord, they become a light to the world, reflecting God's love into a dark and suffocating abyss we call the world.

I'm sorry, I do have so much more to say, but I must be off to work. I wish you many blessings and will keep you in prayer. Hopefully I will get back this evening to address this some more.

Further Reading

Obedience and Service:
John 14:12-23 - Romans 12 - Matthew 20:20-27 - John 13:1-12

[gromitt82]

Originally posted by WonderGirl,
Quote:
I don't agree that the first world has been indifferent

I quite agree that there are many churches, private organizations and NGOs that do what they can to help these countries, some, even at the risk of their lifes.
But that does not mean the 1st world is not indifferent to the suffering and misery of millions of people who still are to be found all over 3rd world countries.

Large multinationals located in the USA and the EU find very profitable to do business at a large escale with some of the most corrupt leaders in the world to be able to have unlimited access to minerals and raw materials which are essential for their industries.
Others, sell all kind of last generationmilitary equipment that contributes to keep alive a number of conflicts at a price of thousands of casualties, particularly in Africa.

A good instance could be the Equatorial Guinea. It is one of the smallest and poorest countries in the continent but which, curioously enough, it happens to be the richest country per capita in Africa. According to the UN "less than half of the population has access to clean drinking water and that 20% of children die before reaching five".

How come? Since the mid-1990s, Equatorial Guinea has become one of sub-Sahara's largest oil producers. At the same time "Equatorial Guinea has one of the worst human rights records in the world, consistently ranking among the "worst of the worst" in Freedom House's annual survey of political and civil rights.[10] Reporters Without Borders ranks President Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo among its "predators" of press freedom"

A 2004 US Senate investigation into the Washington-based Riggs Bank found that President Obiang's family had received huge payments from US oil companies such as Exxon Mobil and Amerada Hess. Since 2005, Military Professional Resources Inc. a US-based international private military company, has worked in Equatorial Guinea to train police forces in appropriate human rights practices. In 2006, US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice hailed Obiang as a "good friend" despite repeated criticism of his human rights and civil liberties record.

The Spanish government (BTW, my country) also considers Obiang as a great partner and he is received with high honors whenever he visits Madrid and other European cities, specially London.

Obiang and his familiy and relatives have an estimated fortune of several billion dollars which is well placed in Swiss, American and English banks as well as in profitable businesses.

I could give you many more and equally terrible examples but this is not really the place to do it.

I just wanted to emphasize that while individually many do care at which is going on in the 3rd world, the 1st world (understanding by this governments and large corporations) not only are indifferent to this situation but they take advantage of it.

Gromitt82