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classyT · Aug 6, 2013, 08:02 AM

Freeman,

you misunderstand me and the bible. Jesus Christ fulfilled the law. We couldn't, can't, won't.. it is just the way it is. The Apostle Paul made it VERY clear in the book of romans the law written on stones was the ministry of death. I didn't say it.. he did. We are under Grace... which is a much higher calling than the law. So no, I don't steal kill, commit adultery and the likes. Jesus came and set me free, he gave me a free gift of HIS righteousness. Grace is a much better deal. Besides the ONLY reason the law was given in the first place was so that man could figure out he was sunk and couldn't live up to it. Do you know Paul actually says that the strength of sin is the law. Repeat that slowly and let it get down into you. That is a pretty big, bold , shocking statement for those who believe they are still under the law.

gromitt82 · Aug 6, 2013, 08:42 AM

Freeman4,

There is no question that the value Jesus places on the commandments of God is also unmistakable—as well as the high esteem toward the law He requires from all those who teach in His name.
Consequently, since Jesus obeyed these commandments, it follows that His servants, too, must keep the same commandments and teach others to do the same (1 John 2:2-6).
It is in this way that the true ministers of Christ are to be identified—by their following the example He set for them (John 13:15)

Now, in my opinion, this poses two further considerations:

1st - we must be very cautious when determining what goes against the Law and what does not. Our own judgement and or our criterion based on our social environment may not be sufficient basis to establish someone else's behavior as sinful. More often than not we have a tendency to qualify as sinful those attitudes that seem to shatter our traditional customs. Not only, on these occasions we consider ourselves in possession of the absolute truth...

Pope Francis has recently given us a wonderful example of what I'm saying when he said ""If a person is gay and seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge?"

I do not see eye to eye on the gay movement but Pope Francis is cautioning about dooming them all just because they are gay...

The second consideration, on the other hand, is more important or so I think. Jesus made quite clear that those who teach the Law should be the first one to abide by it. Exactly as it should happen when speaking of our politics...

And yet, many of our politics and Jesus' ministers keep telling us what we should do and how we should walk the line while they DO NOT put their money where their mouth is!!

This said, it goes without saying that none of the ten Commandments is done away. And that the 11th one " Love one another. As I have loved you" (John 13:35-35).

We all fail to comply with this last one!

Gromitt82

gromitt82 · Aug 6, 2013, 09:27 AM

ClassyT

I have the feeling that both you and Freeman4 are debating the subject of the Law for the sake of one showing to the other that "I'm right and you are wrong"

Is it that important? The Lord gave us 10 Commandments + 1 to abide by them. And He had set us free. Free to conduct and manage our life the way we want. And He also gives His Grace to those that truly have faith in Him. But that does not mean we can rely on His Grace but do what we want... for there will come a time when we ALL will be judge by our Faith and by our deeds... and it will be then when "There will be weeping, and gnashing of teeth ... (Luke 13:28)

Gromitt82

classyT · Aug 6, 2013, 10:40 AM

Grommit,

I think it is VERY important we understand Grace. The 10 commandments according to MY bible were not given to make me good by abiding by them. The 10 commandments were given so that I would come to the end of myself and realize I needed a savior. PERIOD. The strength of sin is the law. How is it you can say the Lord gave us the 10 to abide by them? In fact, man couldn't keep them. Jesus was sent to live a perfect life and fulfilled the law, and was judged in our place. I don't believe a person can fully appreciate or live the Christian life the way it was meant to be lived if he doesn't understand GRACE. So yes Mr. Gromitt, I think it is VERY important. It isn't about being right or wrong... it is about understanding GRACE vs Law. It is a BIG deal.

dwashbur · Aug 6, 2013, 11:42 AM

Paul says repeatedly that nobody will be saved by keeping the law. It stands to reason that they won't be kept by keeping the law, either. Why did Jesus say the law had to be fulfilled? Because he fulfilled it. He even told us so: he didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill it.

The next question is, what does "fulfill" mean? Does it mean we have to keep all the commandments? And sorry to disappoint you, Grommit, but the people to whom the Law was given say there are more than just ten commandments; in fact, there are 613. Do you keep all of them? As T has said many times, the sting of the law is sin. Why? Because the law exposes our sin and shows us our need for a savior. As she said, the law brings us to the end of ourselves and the point where we throw ourselves on His mercy and ask him to fix it.

Funny thing: once He fixes something, it's fixed. I can't break it again. I can knock it around, I can call it names, I can beat it with a hammer, but it's got the Jesus seal of approval and I can't even put a scratch on that. If you don't have that assurance, T and I will be glad to explain how you can get it.

freeman4 · Aug 6, 2013, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by gromitt82

ClassyT

I have the feeling that both you and Freeman4 are debating the subject of the Law for the sake of one showing to the other that "I'm right and you are wrong"

Is it that important? The Lord gave us 10 Commandments + 1 to abide by them. And He had set us free. Free to conduct and manage our life the way we want. And He also gives His Grace to those that truly have faith in Him. But that does not mean we can rely on His Grace but do what we want... for there will come a time when we ALL will be judge by our Faith and by our deeds... and it will be then when "There will be weeping, and gnashing of teeth ... (Luke 13:28)

Gromitt82

I just state what scripture says. If you are anyone else does not adhere to the Commandments of God that is your choice. Most individuals do not like to even talk about them because they are not keeping the 4th.commandment. That is to remember the Sabbath Day and keep it Holy" that is not Sunday. So for one to acknowledge the Commandments they would have to acknowledge the Seventh Day Sabbath.

Did Jesus lie when He said that He would stay in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights, just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish for 3days and 3nights. Please tell me how you can get 3 literal days and 3 literal nights from Friday at sundown till Sunday morning.

People say that it doesn't really matter. Then if it does not Jesus is a liar.

dwashbur · Aug 6, 2013, 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by ;

I just state what scripture says.

No, your approach is a prime example of how not to study the Bible.

gromitt82 · Aug 7, 2013, 02:39 AM

To Dawshbur, ClassyT % Freeman4,

I am sorry but my theological knowledge is by and large obvously inferior to yours. Your statements and manifestations seem to pontificate over subjects which, I think, only our Lord has the true answers.

You are debating about concepts like Grace, Law and/or Sin as if your opinion would be the only valid one. This being the case I prefer to refrain from any further discussions in the conviction that neither you nor I can gain anything out of this written argument

My time down here is about to end (I'm 87) and, therefore, soon enough I will have (or rather my soul will) all the true answers to my present many questions.

I wish you all the very best,
Gromitt82

classyT · Aug 7, 2013, 11:29 AM

Mr. Gromitt,

I hope you are in good health for 87.. but I think you are wrong. I think the Lord did provide answers in his word if we are willing to search for them. Law, Grace and sin are important topics he would not have us ignorant on any of them. It isn't MY opinion that counts anyway. I didn't just give my opinion I backed it up with scripture and the apostle Paul instructed us to rightly divide the word of truth and to study it.

At any rate, I certainly wish you the best as well.

dwashbur · Aug 7, 2013, 01:29 PM

It's not about opinions. It's about truth and assurance. Hebrews 2 says that one of the reasons Jesus came was to deliver people from bondage to fear of death. The only sure way to overcome that fear is to KNOW that I've been forgiven, that I'm held in his hand and that NOTHING can take me out of his hand (see John 10). Too many people think they're saved by grace apart from works (Ephesians 2) but then think they have to work their behinds off to be kept in that grace. Um, grace is by definition UNMERITED. So how in the world can I do enough stuff to merit staying in God's UNMERITED grace? It doesn't make sense. That's not an opinion, that's basic logic.

87? I just turned 60 myself. I've literally been a believer my entire life, and I love the Bible, especially in its original languages. I hate theology. I have two points of theology for which I would be willing to endure martyrdom: 1. God exists, and 2. Jesus rose from the dead. Everything else is subject to study and further understanding. But the closer I get to my eternal destiny, the more I realize that I can live the joyous life that I do because He loves me unconditionally. Somewhere in the distant recesses of my childhood, I said "Please make me yours" and he did. And nothing's going to change that, because he said so in very plain terms. That's not an opinion. It's truth.

classyT · Aug 7, 2013, 05:36 PM

Dave,

Well between me and you, if I had YOUR theology... I would hate it too! Ha ha ha ha... yes, I am a HOOT or at least I think I am. :P

gromitt82 · Aug 9, 2013, 09:38 AM

ClasyT

How is it you can say the Lord gave us the 10 to abide by them? In fact, man couldn't keep them. Jesus was sent to live a perfect life and fulfilled the law, and was judged in our place. I don't believe a person can fully appreciate or live the Christian life the way it was meant to be lived if he doesn't understand GRACE. So yes Mr. Gromitt, I think it is VERY important. It isn't about being right or wrong...it is about understanding GRACE vs Law. It is a BIG deal

Dear correspondent,

I have nothing to add to my previous answer to you. You are entitled to believe what you deem it more convenient and so am I.

I truly hope we both be right!

Gromitt82