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bagel2756 · May 9, 2013, 05:39 PM

Can I change locks on a condo that I own without the other person who has power of attorney with the other owner knowing it? The other person who has power of attorney and I don't get along.

smoothy · May 9, 2013, 06:11 PM

No... because you don't have controlling legal authority.

ScottGem · May 10, 2013, 05:48 AM

I have to disagree with smoothy. You can certainly change the locks without permission of the co-owner. What you can't do is refuse to give him one of the keys. Nor can you charge his share of the cost unless he give prior permission.

What is not clear here is whether you both are occupying the condo. Knowing that and knowing where this condo is will help us help you more.

bagel2756 · May 10, 2013, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by ScottGem

I have to disagree with smoothy. You can certainly change the locks without permission of the co-owner. What you can't do is refuse to give him one of the keys. Nor can you charge his share of the cost unless he give prior permission.

What is not clear here is whether you both are occupying the condo. Knowing that and knowing where this condo is will help us help you more.

Thanks to everyone who answered. The condo is in a gated community where HOA's apply as the mortgage is already paid off.

smoothy · May 10, 2013, 07:44 AM

To further explain my answer... you can't lock out the other individual... (I had assumed that was the intention)

You can however change the lock if you give them a copy of the key.

bagel2756 · May 10, 2013, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by smoothy

To further explain my answer.....you can't lock out the other individual....(I had assumed that was the intention)

You can however change the lock if you give them a copy of the key.

Thanks again.

ebaines · May 10, 2013, 08:13 AM

Let me try to clarify. I assume here that there are two co-owners: the OP (let's call him person 'A') and another person, we'll call person 'B.' Person B has signed a Power of Attorney with a third person - person 'C.' The POA gives C the authority to act in B's stead, but does not require that person B consult or get approval from C for everything he does. Thus A and B can mutally agree to change the locks, sell the condo, redecorate, whatever without having to worry about getting C's permission. Having a PoA does not give C the right to over-rule B's decisions. So the answer is - the OP does not need C's permission, as long as he has B's permission.

Now if B is incapacitated or unavailable (perhaps ill or out of the country) and unable to give permission, then C acts in his place, in which case then yes, you need C's agreement.

ScottGem · May 10, 2013, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by ebaines

Let me try to clarify.

While I don't disagree with anything you said. I don't think that's the situation. I think the OP doesn't get along with B and wants to lock him out. Clearly he can't do that.

bagel2756 · May 10, 2013, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by ScottGem

While I don't disagree with anything you said. I don't think that's the situation. I think the OP doesn't get along with B and wants to lock him out. Clearly he can't do that.

Ok, here is another new twist in this issue. I find out that the two people holding the POA or separate POA's, not sure which, did they want to have a meeting to I guess, verbally agree to sell the house and have my wife and I who are the owners, 50 percent owners anyway, agree to the same. My brother has the other 50 percent ownership in the property and signed to OK these other2 to have POA. I think we should all meet at the sales office can initiate putting the house up for sale and eliminate the BS session, which is the meeting. The 1 orchestrating the meeting, vilified me with the other two POA's and my wife and I do not trust her. She is the financial planner for my brother, in which case she didn't do a very good job of that. As my brother is dead broke and now unable to take care of himself. Do you think we should all head to the sales office?

ScottGem · May 11, 2013, 06:55 AM

First question. Why has your brother given 2 POAs? Normally a POA is given when someone is incapacitated in some way. Also, POAs can be general or limited. Depending on how the POA is worded, only one is probably valid.

Second Question. Do you or anyone live in the condo?

If you want to sell the condo then just put it up for sale, why do you need a meeting? You may need a meeting to decide whether to accept an offer, but not necessarily to list it for sale.

bagel2756 · May 11, 2013, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by ScottGem

First question. Why has your brother given 2 POAs? Normally a POA is given when someone is incapacitated in some way. Also, POAs can be general

or limited. Depending on how the POA is worded, only one is probably valid.

Second Question. Do you or anyone live in the condo?

If you want to sell the condo then just put it up for sale, why do you need a meeting? You may need a meeting to decide whether to accept an offer, but not necessarily to list it for sale.

1st answer: I don't know as I've yet to talk to my brother.
2ND answer: Nobody lives in it.
Thanks for answering.

ScottGem · May 11, 2013, 09:15 AM

Have you seen the POAs? How do you know they are real?

bagel2756 · May 11, 2013, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by ScottGem

Have you seen the POAs? How do you know they are real?

I haven't seen the POAs. Right right now it's all hearsay.

AK lawyer · May 11, 2013, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by smoothy

To further explain my answer.....you can't lock out the other individual....(I had assumed that was the intention)

You can however change the lock if you give them a copy of the key.

Not really accurate.

If two people own real property together, and one changes the lock, it is not "against the law" (in the sense that would suggest a crime has been committed). The other person is free to bust open the door, replace the lock again, and so forth.

If they cannot agree, it's not a police matter: they need to go to civil court to get their differences sorted out.

And if a third person holds a POA from one of the two owners, that simply means that (if so provided by the terms of the POA), that person stands in the shoes of the co-owner.

bagel2756 · May 16, 2013, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by AK lawyer

Not really accurate.

If two people own real property together, and one changes the lock, it is not "against the law" (in the sense that would suggest a crime has been committed). The other person is free to bust open the door, replace the lock again, and so forth.

If they cannot agree, it's not a police matter: they need to go to civil court to get their differences sorted out.

And if a third person holds a POA from one of the two owners, that simply means that (if so provided by the terms of the POA), that person stands in the shoes of the co-owner.

Thanks to all those who contributed to this thread.
Here is an update to what is going on. All the parties will meet at the property for a sales meeting. Those parties will be my wife and I who own 50% of the property, my brother, who owns the other 50% and his 2 POAs along with a financial planner of whom my brother is a client and the sales agent. The 2 POAs were orchestrated by the financial planner who will be there as a go between and a sounding board.

I believe, I have been vilified by the fp to the POAs. What should my wife and
I lookout for concerning this meeting? And , my wife and I, plan as retribution, to expose my brother to the POAs as an elder abuser against our mother who took verbal abuse almost no end from my brother when she started with her Alzheimer's. Evidently, they don't know that and think my brother is a dear christian brother. When the Alzheimer's started, my brother who was her POA, just fed her bananas as he knew that the money my mother had was going to be 50% his and didn't want to spend any more than he had to. Later, he had to relent and send our mother to a care home. Actually, that money was my parents' nest egg for a rainy day in case one or both of them fell into ill health. My father passed in 1982. Could the retribution backfire that I mentioned before, against my wife and I in the form of a lawsuit or another negative? Outside of a police report of a disturbance at the property, we have no further evidence other than hearsay and what my wife and I witnessed when we were there at my mother's home witnessing the abuse against my mother.

ebaines · May 16, 2013, 08:50 AM

bagel2756: thanks for getting back to us and providing more details, but I'm still confused. Originally you said you had an issue with a person who had the co-owner's PoA, but now it seems you have an issue with your brother, who is the co-owner, and the financial planner who for some reason doesn't like you. If I understand correctly your brother will be there along with the two people who have PoA and the financial planner. Among this crowd only your brother counts (as long as he is competent), as the folks with the PoAs are there only in case your brother can't make it or is incompetent, and the financial planner is there only to counsel your brother. So - what's the point of convincing these other three folks that you brother is a cad? What do you hope to accomplish? If you're amenable to selling the property be done with it. Keep it professional - no good can come from making accusations about past events that have nothing to do with this transaction.

bagel2756 · May 16, 2013, 09:59 AM

I agree with what you wrote. I always had an issue with my brother. The fp always favored my brother. Thanks again for the input.

ScottGem · May 16, 2013, 10:24 AM

I agree with ebaines. This meeting is to discuss selling the condo. If your brother is there, the POAs do not need to be there and they have absolutely no power. They can advise your brother, but if he is there that negates the POAs. They cannot sign for him if he is present unless there is an issue of mental incompetence which means he shouldn't be there in the first place.

There is no reason or purpose to bring up your feelings towards your brother or the POAs or any issues about his treatment of your parents. That is beyond the scope of a meeting to discuss selling the property.

Just to reinforce this. A Power of Attorney is given to a person to act on behalf of an individual when the individual cannot act for themselves. This could be because of illness or because the individual may not be able to be present to act for themselves. But if the individual is present, then the POA is negated.

bagel2756 · May 16, 2013, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by ScottGem

I agree with ebaines. This meeting is to discuss selling the condo. If your brother is there, the POAs do not need to be there and they have absolutely no power. They can advise your brother, but if he is there that negates the POAs. They cannot sign for him if he is present unless there is an issue of mental incompetence which means he shouldn't be there int he first place.

There is no reason or purpose to bring up your feelings towards your brother or the POAs or any issues about his treatment of your parents. That is beyond the scope of a meeting to discuss selling the property.

Just to reinforce this. A Power of Attorney is given to a person to act on behalf of an individual when the individual cannot act for themselves. This could be because of illness or because the individual may not be able to be present to act for themself. But if the individual is present, then the POA is negated.

I heard from the FP that my brother will be there along with the POAs even though he suffers from dementia. The sales agent states that she has experience with these cases and will know how to handle it.

bagel2756 · May 17, 2013, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by bagel2756

I heard from the FP that my brother will be there along with the POAs even though he suffers from dementia. The sales agent states that she has experience with these cases and will know how to handle it.

Neglected to mention, the fp knows ab out the abuse. I believe she was just concerned about the almighty dollar when she orchestted the other 2 POAs.