[speechlesstx]

On the other hand I can't understand the objection to preventing voter fraud, I don't want anyone disenfranchised including me by having my legitimate vote cancelled by fraudulent votes.

[tomder55]

. Having said that, I believe that voter ID laws WAS an attempt to suppress the black vote.. Even though I believe your hearts are pure, do you have ANY doubts about the motives of your leaders?

Perhaps that goes more with when I wrote The discussion has to go beyond finger pointing and suspicion of motives .
Our side suspects that there is voter fraud ;some of the statistics bear it out... how do you get over 100 % turnout in a district ? Wouldn't a photo id adequately prevent fraud in a time when there is frequently same day registrations ? Do you not see the potential for fraud in that ?
Your side questions our motives and says that our reason for doing it is to deny the franchise to minorities. That is an absurd argument that reeks of the mistrust I spoke about .We want everyone who is eligible to vote to have the opportunity to vote... Yes it should be as convenient as possible... but the integrity of the process is just as important . So if someone has to get a photo id to vote ;that doesn't seem to be all that much of an inconvenience. The process can be tweeked to deal with all the concerns against it.

[excon]

Hello again, Steve:

You're not playing well with others...

There's TWO levels to this conversation.. There's voter ID, and we HAD that discussion.. Now, I'm trying to elevate the conversation. Or maybe that's my intellectualism, and there IS no higher level...

Look. I know we're not going to solve the worlds problems here. But, if we can create some understanding, that'll go a long way.

Will it help if I admit my racism here? I HATE it, but when I see young black men I go on the alert. When they sit behind me at a restaurant, I wonder if they're going to rob me. Yes, I hate it, but it doesn't go away. I am NOT immune from the society where I am ingrained... Ok, my mother referred to our cleaning girl as the shfartza. That's as racist as you get.. I thought it was cute name. I knew NOTHING.

Over to you, wingers..

excon

[speechlesstx]

Hey, you're the one that keeps playing the voter ID card. As I've said many times I am the minority, the skin jokes were about me. Nearly all my friends had darker skin than me growing up so I don't get this racism thing. They're just people, so when everyone adopts my view and stops pointing out their skin color we might get somewhere.

[excon]

Hello again, tom:

Your side questions our motives and says that our reason for doing it is to deny the franchise to minorities. That is an absurd argument that reeks of the mistrust I spoke about

Are smoothy's motives as pure as yours? Why is it absurd to think he doesn't want black people to vote, because he HATES them? How many smoothy's are there on your side? That you have them, and you do, is the basis for the mistrust you speak of.. I don't think it's unreasonable at all.

Excon

[tomder55]

I have not heard smoothy say that he's in favor of voter id for the purpose of denying the franchise to blacks. In fact I have not heard anyone on my side express that sentiment . You are projecting motives that do not exist... or if they do ,it is from an insignificant fringe segment . Yeah I'm sure neo-Nazi skin head and KKK etc would say that... For you to project that onto the larger conservative or Republic body demonstrates that 'suspicion of motives ' I was speaking about.

[excon]

Hello again, tom:

I have not heard smoothy say that he's in favor of voter id for the purpose of denying the franchise to blacks.

I'm not buying it. Does someone actually have to DECLARE what their motives are before you suspect them of something untoward?? I don't think I've ever heard smoothy say he HATES black people either, but anybody who can read can't doubt that he does.

You say, OK, maybe there's a few on the fringe...

Maybe if your party wasn't the one who opposed civil rights legislation, one could believe that. Or, you COULD pretend it was the Republican party who was the SAVIOR of black people, like Rand Paul tried to tell his black audience at Howard University yesterday. He doesn't seem to know that revising black history in front of an educated black audience, isn't the way to reach out... In fact, it ADDS to the suspicion..

Years ago, I was accused of SHOVING an employee. I did TOUCH her on the shoulder, but it turned into a giant fiasco. Since then, I NEVER come within 3 feet of an employee.

You'd think the Republican party would do the same thing. If I were running the RNC, and I wanted the country to BELIEVE that our racist ways were OVER, I'd STAY AWAY from legislation that could be considered to be racist... Instead they're dabbling around the edges.

Yes, I AM suspicious.

Excon

[speechlesstx]

You do know it was a Democrat in each house that were blocking the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and that Republicans voted for it in a larger percentage than Dems. And that Sheets Byrd filibustered it, right?

[smoothy]

I have not heard smoothy say that he's in favor of voter id for the purpose of denying the franchise to blacks. In fact I have not heard anyone on my side express that sentiment . You are projecting motives that do not exist .... or if they do ,it is from an insignificant fringe segment . Yeah I'm sure neo-Nazi skin head and KKK etc would say that ... For you to project that onto the larger conservative or Repubic body demonstrates that 'suspicion of motives ' I was speaking about.

And I'm not... I am in favor of a Photo Voter ID to show that people are who they claim... and they aren't voting under 3 or 4 different names and addresses. That has everything to do with ensuring one person.. one vote.. and that those who vote are legally entitled to vote.

You can't vote in MOST countries without a state issued voter ID... and the reason for that is to control voter fraud. Fraud is rampant anywhere people don't have to prove they are who they claim... and that they are even entitled to vote in the first place.

Anyone that is against voter ID.. is someone that is FOR vote fraud.

Funny how poor people can come up with an ID to get their handouts... or other benefits... and they do need an ID to get them. Why is it they can't get one to vote too? Or is it because many of them vote more than once?

[excon]

Hello again, Steve:

What both you and Rand Paul forget, that both me and black people remember is that AFTER the Civil Rights Act passed, the Dixiecrats, (southern Democrats), became Republicans.

But, I'm not going to argue about one or two people, and what THAT means.. It means NOTHING in the main. The larger issue, however, is your intention to rewrite history. IF the intent of your post, and Rand Paul's speech, is to convince black people that it was RIGHT WINGERS, no matter what they called themselves back then, who were the CHAMPIONS of civil rights..

It's laughable on it's face.

excon

[tomder55]

Well it's the suspicions that are road blocks to the progress you seek. As you have demonstrated.. when push comes to shove ;it's resort to finger pointing.. that makes for intractable positions.
Yup Repubics like Paul cherry pick their history much like the Dems do ( Kennedy '' ask not what your country can do for you".. Kennedy supply side tax cuts.. etc ) .

I would argue that the Dems nanny state dependency policies have ultimately hurt blacks . I would argue ,like Jack Kemp used to , that in the long run that conservatives polices are better for the black community .There are many prominent blacks who say the same thing .They are disparaged and dismissed as sell outs .

What bothered me most was the exchange he had with the student who said :,”I don't want the government to leave me alone. I want it to help me”. Yeah ,the Dems are good at nurturing dependency . Everyone criticized Romney for comments he made about people who would not vote for him because he doesn't believe in dolling out the goodies. Here is a case where a member of the presumably "educated black audience "would rather depend on the nanny-state for his well being .

Can't say I blame him... increasingly ,the entitlement game is the only game in town .

[talaniman]

A better game is high finance that buys up stuff moves it around and creates NO labor cost, just huge bonuses. Calling people names can lead to suspicion and finger pointing, especially since they aren't job creators like the rich guys claim.

And if you have ever been laid off or fired, would YOU vote for a guy who looks, acts, and talks like a boss? Government didn't create a nanny state, rich guys did.

[tomder55]

I've been laid off and fired before . You pick yourself up . Don't feel sorry for yourself or put upon .

[Tuttyd]

it could be argued that racism is a form of ethnocentrism ;as the concept of race is a relatively new concept ;a product of the 18th century. Slavery predates that by many Centuries. I have no doubt that legacy of slavery is a contributing factor in race relations.

I think this idea just perpetuates confusion. Your ethnic identity is acquired by learning. In other words, your social characteristics exhibited are the product of what your groups wants you to learn. What you learn you can unlearn.

Racism on the other hand says that your social characteristics are part of your biology. They have not been learned and you cannot change them. This type of pseudo-scientific definitions can take the form of blood types and partial 'percentage-ness' of a race.

[talaniman]

I've been laid off and fired before . You pick yourself up . Don't feel sorry for yourself or put upon .

Some are more overwhelmed than others. Some get up quicker than others. Human nature has many responses to adversity. Share some of your coping strategies with us, like how did you eat and provide shelter for yourself, while laid off and fired.

[tomder55]

Racism on the other hand says that your social characteristics are part of your biology. They have not been learned and you cannot change them. This type of pseudo-scientific definitions can take the form of blood types and partial 'percentage-ness' of a race.

Like I said; Race consciousness is a relatively new concept. Pseudo-science?. absolutely ! It is being discredited by scientific discovery too.
Ethnocentrism would explain Smoothy's point about the prejudice against the Irish... That was the Irish v English experience that began in England ,and crossed the pond .

[tomder55]

Some are more overwhelmed than others. Some get up quicker than others. Human nature has many responses to adversity. Share some of your coping strategies with us, like how did you eat and provide shelter for yourself, while laid off and fired.

I plan for rainy days I live a modest lifestyle generally . My wife is good at stretching grocery money.. Beans and rice etc. I temporarily took jobs I was over qualified for ,I retrained.. I kept looking for better;and there was an element of luck . I did not feel sorry for myself . I worked 2 jobs with a walking cast on my foot !

Life happens... maybe the left doesn't recognize that . You think the solution for every thing is found in a government program.

[Tuttyd]

like I said; Race consciousness is a relatively new concept. Pseudo-science ?...absolutely ! It is being discredited by scientific discovery too.
Ethnocentrism would explain Smoothy's point about the prejudice against the Irish ... That was the Irish v English experience that began in England ,and crossed the pond .

Yes, but it doesn't explain the use of "blood types" to explain ethnocentric or ethnic prejudices. Ethnic prejudice should not have anything to do with biology of the blood and a fair bit to do with racism.

[Fr_Chuck]

I am new to this and will just go on some observations that I have seen in my travels.

There is discrimination due to race, or skin color, due to income and due to religion in almost all of the world.

Here in China, light skin is worshiped, people will spend 1000's trying to get lighter skin, and people with darker color skin are seen or viewed as less popular. My wife can not get some speaking positions ( that they will give me) because she is black and they want white english speaking people. ** speaking positions pay very well for one day work.

Also discrimination due to male/ female is very common all over the world.

So is religion since for example, certain positions here people are not allowed to have official religions. Perhaps what we will see latter in the US where anyone in political office has to deny their religion, I see it in real life, so it is possible.

[smoothy]

Hello again, tom:

Are smoothy's motives as pure as yours? Why is it absurd to think he doesn't want black people to vote, because he HATES them? How many smoothy's are there on your side? That you have them, and you do, is the basis for the mistrust you speak of.. I don't think it's unreasonable at all.

excon

Funny... since YOU have that fixation... perhaps its YOU that harbors hatred towards blacks...

Because I for one don't. I harbor hatred toward the lazy.. and the idiots that think they are entitled to free rides... and we all know that group crosses ALL ethnic boundaries.