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excon · Dec 7, 2012, 01:46 PM

Hello again, Steve:

I think it's actually less a war on Christmas than it is a war on the church,

Nahhh.. I LOVE the church.. I do. I love the architecture. I love the ceremony. I love the holidays. Did I mention that I LOVE Christmas?

I LOVE that our founders came here to establish a country where they could practice their religion, and not be bothered by anybody... You'll note, that I don't list the church tax exemption anywhere in my list of things that should be reversed. I'm happy with them operating tax free.

My wanting to keep religion OUT of the public square is because I PAY for the public square too. Like our founders, I don't want the public square to BE a church. In fact, they FOUNDED this country on that being so. I have history, the LAW and the Constitution on my side. It really IS just a matter of time.

But when a church, is a church on its OWN property, I LOVE it. I really, really love it. Oh, I don't BELIEVE it. It's hogwash. But, if not for the church, my beloved country would not have been established.

Excon

tomder55 · Dec 7, 2012, 03:08 PM

I'm happy with them operating tax free.

I actually would prefer they didn't . There is clearly a quid pro quo attached to the exempt status that the church should reject.

My wanting to keep religion OUT of the public square is because I PAY for the public square too.

And if the public of my little village wants to put up a manger ;or call our decorated tree a ' Christmas Tree' ,why is it the business of someone on the other side of the country ?

speechlesstx · Dec 7, 2012, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:

Nahhh.. I LOVE the church.. I do. I love the architecture. I love the ceremony. I love the holidays. Did I mention that I LOVE Christmas??

I LOVE that our founders came here to establish a country where they could practice their religion, and not be bothered by anybody... You'll note, that I don't list the church tax exemption anywhere in my list of things that should be reversed. I'm happy with them operating tax free.

My wanting to keep religion OUT of the public square is because I PAY for the public square too. Like our founders, I don't want the public square to BE a church. In fact, they FOUNDED this country on that being so. I have history, the LAW and the Constitution on my side. It really IS just a matter of time.

But when a church, is a church on its OWN property, I LOVE it. I really, really love it. Oh, I don't BELIEVE it. It's hogwash. But, if not for the church, my beloved country would not have been established.

excon

Keeping the church out the public square now means forbidding a Christian to take tickets at a benefit concert for a secular charity to provide health care overseas?

paraclete · Dec 7, 2012, 03:54 PM

From the sublime to the ridiculous

excon · Dec 7, 2012, 05:37 PM

Hello again, tom:

why is it the business of someone on the other side of the country ?

Because the Constitution covers everybody.. If someone is denied their rights in YOUR town, it affects me in MY town.

Excon

talaniman · Dec 7, 2012, 08:30 PM

These guys are intolerant loonies

Hawaii Citizens for the Separation of State and Church

tomder55 · Dec 8, 2012, 05:19 PM

Blessed are You, Lord our God, King of the universe, who has sanctified us by His commandments, and has commanded us to kindle the lights of Hanukkah.

excon · Dec 8, 2012, 05:31 PM

Hello again, tom:

I lit mine. Thanks for the prayer.

excon

Fr_Chuck · Dec 9, 2012, 08:14 AM

The issue here is that the Constitution gives the Federal Government the rights to not have a Federal Religion and as changed and accepted now, separate the Federal Government from religion.

The rights of the states and cities are still held ( or should be) and the clause does not effect states directly since states have the free right to hold those rights not given to the federal government

tomder55 · Dec 9, 2012, 08:19 AM

Fr Chuck.. right on !

excon · Dec 9, 2012, 08:36 AM

Hello again,

So, the city and the church should be all wrapped up with each other. Uhhhh, which church would that be?? Can MY church have its own city too? What if the Muslims wanted to BE the church of YOUR city? If I lived in that city, I wouldn't put up with the church taking over my public space. Being the patriot that I am, I'd STOP it.

You think the residents of that city would be happy with a religious war? Really?

excon

tomder55 · Dec 9, 2012, 10:33 AM

After the adoption of the 1st amendment ,many of the states still had official state religions . The last of the original states did not dissestablish until some 44 years later in 1833 .

But that is not the point . The putting up of holiday scenes like a crèche or menorah does not constitute the establishment of a religion. All it really does is recognize the cultural heritage of the people ;and if a community was predominantly Muslim like some communities I would fully expect that they too would recognize their heritage .

Wondergirl · Dec 9, 2012, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by tomder55

if a community was predominantly Muslim like some communities I would fully expect that they too would recognize their heritage .

If I am a Christian in that Muslim community, would I want my tax dollars being spent to put up a Muslim whatever on public property?

tomder55 · Dec 9, 2012, 10:52 AM

Why not ? Here in NY they constantly use taxpayer's money to do things like celebrate St Patrick's day ;the San Gennaro etc. Now here in bluer than blue NY you would think there would be someone who would get a bug up their butt over the city absorbing that expense. But they recognize the cultural importance of the event .
I remind you Fr Chuck's point... and quote the exact wording of the amendment regarding religion...
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

It says nothing about the public square of local communities.

Wondergirl · Dec 9, 2012, 10:58 AM

San Gennaro is presented and paid for by Figli di San Gennaro (Children of San Gennaro), a not-for-profit community organization which has produced and operated the Feast since 1996. The St. Pat's Parade et al. is privately funded. So no tax dollars pay for either.

tomder55 · Dec 9, 2012, 11:10 AM

I assure you that the taxpayers on NY pay plenty if nothing else than in police crowd control.
But if you won't take that as evidence ;how about this ?
NYC To Celebrate Chanukah With Lighting Of 32-Foot-Tall Menorah « CBS New York
The menorah is not being lit to make a statement about an endorsement of religion as much as a cultural recognition of a large segment of the population.

paraclete · Dec 9, 2012, 06:03 PM

menorah, Christmas trees it's all the same, a cultural expression, so what if it is rooted in religion. Every one of the excesses of your former masters you tried to right in the constitution has bitten you on the bum

tomder55 · Dec 10, 2012, 04:13 AM

Imagine if a national manger was displayed on the national mall.

National Menorah set to be lit in Washington for Hanukkah | Reuters

Nah ,no war on Christmas in this country .

paraclete · Dec 10, 2012, 06:06 AM

It's ridiculous, I don't know about you but we used to have Christmas issue stamps, manger and all, no one worried about it, then we got all PC because of some stupid minority, now the Lord Mayor of Sydney doesn't even want to celebrate Christmas, of course she is Gay and stupid so what else would you expect, you can have a Gay parade but you can't celebrate Christmas, there's equality for you, or perhaps there is another word for it, but I know where we imported the idea from

speechlesstx · Dec 10, 2012, 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, tom:

Because the Constitution covers everybody.. If someone is denied their rights in YOUR town, it affects me in MY town.

excon

The constitution says nothing about a private citizen who happens to be a member of a church volunteering to take tickets at a public school event. Even if it's blatantly obvious a church is working with the school, why in the hell should anyone object to church and school working together for charity in a purely secular way?