[Wondergirl]

Where would your wife go if you were uninsured and out of work?

[speechlesstx]

To the J.O. Wyatt Clinic. Don't tell me Amarillo is the only city in the country that doesn't have health care services for the needy without going to PP.

[TUT317]

Came across another interesting point of view about the Mourdock non-issue via Timothy P. Carney.



Go ahead, tear into me.

Hi Steve,

Yes, it is interesting, but I think I can explain it in this way.

Unless you replace the word "created" with the word "conception" you have not actually stripped away the theology as the author of the article suggests.

The distinction the author is actually making ( although he don't realize this) is based on the distinction that exists when we try to think of people being the production of CONCEPTION or the product of CREATION. It is a false dichotomy to think you can make a ethical judgement for other people based on this distinction.

Tut

[paraclete]

Hi Steve,

Yes, it is interesting, but I think I can explain it in this way.

Unless you replace the word "created" with the word "conception" you have not actually stripped away the theology as the author of the article suggests.

The distinction the author is actually making ( although he don't realize this) is based on the distinction that exists when we try to think of people being the production of CONCEPTION or the product of CREATION. It is a false dichotomy to think you can make a ethical judgement for other people based on this distinction.

Tut

I think the whole concept is false Tut, we are a product of creation and we are the result of conception, there is no dichotomy unless you deny the concept of creation. The ethical judgement here is whether the product of a woman's body is entirely her possession and at what point does it cease to be her possession. If you carry the arguments of the abortion debate to their logical conclusion then the mother is entitled to dispatch the child at any point in its life, this is an absurdity and so is the concept that a woman has sole possession of her body after conception.

This is no different to the idea perpetrated the other day that God consents to rape because he regards every child as his own. A totally false premise, however conception as a result of rape is still conception, and the child will not be rejected

[TUT317]

I think the whole concept is false Tut, we are a product of creation and we are the result of conception, there is no dichotomy unless you deny the concept of creation. The ethical judgement here is whether the product of a woman's body is entirely her possession and at what point does it cease to be her possession. If you carry the arguments of the abortion debate to their logical conclusion then the mother is entitled to dispatch the child at any point in its life, this is an absurdity and so is the concept that a woman has sole possession of her body after conception.

this is no different to the idea perpetrated the other day that God consents to rape because he regards every child as his own. A totally false premise, however conception as a result of rape is still conception, and the child will not be rejected

Hi Clete,

As you probably know I am in the pro-life camp. I was pointing out there are some people in this world that don't accept we are the product of creation.

These people tend to fall into the scientific camp so they are more than likely prone to justifying the ethics of abortion on a scientific basis. As to whether this is legitimate undertaking is subject of many pages of debate. However, I will stick to a basic outline of the scientific argument. I actually reject the scientific argument, but I understand that many people accept it.

Science would probably want to say that the difference between a fetus and a child in the womb is the difference between being conscious and not conscious.
Science claims to be able to tell us at what point a fetus becomes conscious. In other words, they claim to be able to give us a figure in months. They base this on the neurological development of the brain and spinal cord.

Again, I have problems with this, but I won't go into it. I will try and stick to the scientific explanation.

At six weeks of development there is probably a reasonable argument for claiming that the developing fetus is not conscious. There is not enough neurological development at this stage. On the other hand ,at six months of development one would have great problems in try to convince someone that a fetus isn't conscious. Obviously it is a sentient being from now on.

The problem for science is pinning down the point at which a fetus becomes conscious. Once consciousness is achieved it would be wrong on all counts to try and abort.

Prior to consciousness there is a belief that getting rid of the fetus is not really a significant act. It is acceptable because the fetus feels no pain, it has no experiences, it is not conscious.

We are probably lead to believe this is similar to having a unwanted hair removed from your body. Hair feels no pain. Again, I find something inherently wrong with this type of thinking. However, I am probably no being fair to the other side because I have neglected to mention the significance of the mother in the argument. I accept the argument that the wishes and feeling of the mother need to be taken into account as well.

So Clete, I guess the possibility of the mother deciding the fate of a child at ANY STAGE of development in the womb is not justified on a scientific basis.




Tut

[paraclete]

HI Tut I'm glad you finally got to defining the difference between conscious and sentient otherwise your argument would suggest we are less than human when asleep..
The ethical dilemna is whether to take a life under any circumstances is valid.

We seem to be able to make an argument that any of our actions are valid. Situational ethics, and I see the yield to feminism and the abortion debates as nothing more than situation ethics and pure emotionalism.

Instead of teaching children responsibility and morality we teach them emotional rubbish under a thin veneer of scientific reason and some sort of flawed logic. You speak about the feelings of the mother, which feelings are these the fear of a teenage girl or the feelings of guilt carried over a life time, the resententment of the product of a few moments of fun verses what that viable life might have been

[speechlesstx]

Tut, I read an article yesterday there is a movement to give plants rights. I'm sure those same people cannot possibly find a reason to give an unborn child rights, not even a beating heart, fingers and toes. But because plants "communicate" with each other it's time to afford them protections.

[tomder55]

A mother can either legally snuff out their child's life in the womb or criminally snuff out the life and throw it into the dumpster on her way home from the birth clinic. The difference between legal abortion and murder could be the difference in days or even hours .

[talaniman]

Or point of development.

[Wondergirl]

a mother can either legally snuff out their child's life in the womb or criminally snuff out the life and throw it into the dumpster on her way home from the birth clinic. The difference between legal abortion and murder could be the difference in days or even hours .

Most abortions occur within the first trimester, even early in that trimester.

[tomder55]

So would you favor a ban on abortions after the 1st trimester ?

[Wondergirl]

so would you favor a ban on abortions after the 1st trimester ?

No, I would not be so hubristic to tell anyone when she should have an abortion. I wouldn't have had the problem to solve in the first place.

[tomder55]

So your point that most abortions occure in the 1st trimester is irrelevant to my point that the difference between a legal killing and murder is the matter of minutes and hours.

[TUT317]

Yes. But the usual route is to have a doctor order one and then the doctor and specialist review the results. Most of the time the family physician is the frontline for ordering tests. But a patient could order a test and sign papers without a doctors permission and have a test done.

In Australia we have mobile mammogram clinics. The service is free and readily available to everyone. No referral required and the service is extensively advertised.

Self-examination is important but the early detection through technology is essential. If both sides are not providing the service, or not intending to provide the service then perhaps they should.


.

[Wondergirl]

so your point that most abortions occure in the 1st trimester is irrelevent to my point that the difference between a legal killing and murder is the matter of minutes and hours.

Which then implies that a first trimester abortion is not "legal killing."

[speechlesstx]

Or point of development.

And at what point does it become murder?

[speedball1]

And at what point does it become murder?

When does it become murder? It becomes murder when the little bay-bee pops out and get tossed in the trash.
Did you have another legal definition for murder? You really ought to bone up on your terms. Murder only occurs OUTSIDE a woman's body. Back to English 101 for you. Ya got the talk Spineless but I somehow doubt that you have enough stones to walk the walk.
Speedball1

[paraclete]

It is always murder, it is just a question of whether it is legalised or not.

[speechlesstx]

Speedwad, you're projecting again. Therapy can help you with that but first you have to admit you have a problem.

[TUT317]

When does it become murder? It becomes murder when the little bay-bee pops out and get tossed in the trash.
Did you have another legal definition for murder? You really ought to bone up on your terms. Murder only occurs OUTSIDE a womans body. Back to English 101 for you. Ya got the talk Spineless but I somehow doubt that you have enough stones to walk the walk.
Speedball1

Hi Speedball

You are not quite correct.

What depresses me about the reality of the whole thing is that you are almost correct.



Tut