[paraclete]

Rome is gone and I doubt America will last as long as Rome. You are making the same mistakes, projecting your power until someone realises it is an empty shell. The Romans became fat and lazy enjoying their money and you are doing the same. You are ruled by patrician families just as the Romans were

Thing is I live in a fairer world than you do, it hasn't bankrupted our state and we don't need slave labour in the form of migrant workers to prop up our society. You fail to understand empire, the Romans reaped the benefits of empire, you have been doing the same but it collapes when the extremidities of empire become wealthy and independent

[TUT317]

The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If ‘Thou shalt not covet’ and ‘Thou shalt not steal’ were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society before it can be civilized or made free.”John Adams

“I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.”James Madison

Hi Tom,

I am sure Adams, as well as other thinkers of the time were trying to echo Locke. One can also understand why there were admirers of Locke.

Unfortunately, Adams got it wrong in this case. Private property does not have anything to do with religion. Locke's account is a historical account of the origins of government. It isn't a theistic account of government.


Tut

[tomder55]

So it's OK for government to steal ?

[talaniman]

If they make it LEGAL its okay. Just ask Mitt, and Bank of America. The founders had their own self interest at the time. When people were private property.

[TUT317]

so it's ok for government to steal ?

No it's no all right for governments to steal.

I think I am as religious as the next person but you don't, and should not use religion as a justification for the ownership of private property or the ownership of the means of production. These types of ideas may well have been tolerated in the 18th century; but not today.

"Thou shall not steal' is an ethical commandment that applies to individuals, not governments. Governments should not be bound in any way to virtue ethics. In exactly the same way they should not be enforcing this type of ethic.

There are better way to justify the ownership of private property.

Tut

[talaniman]

Blatantly buying politicians and writing rules and regulations is not one of them.

[tomder55]

Blatantly buying politicians and writing rules and regulations is not one of them.

couldn't have said it better myself. Your side is the worse offenders.

[NeedKarma]

couldn't have said it better myself. Your side is the worse offenders.

None are so blind...
Your entire politics is geared that way, regardless of party affiliation.

[speechlesstx]

Capitalist grow the pie for themselves. If you get a piece, you pay THEM for it.

So you do want everything handed to you on a platter. So go ahead, get rid of the capitalists and then there will be no one left to grow a pie. Pretty soon you're going to run out of pie.

[paraclete]

Stop dealing in absolutes, no society can be successful dealing in absolutes

[speechlesstx]

"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." -- Margaret Thatcher

[NeedKarma]

"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." -- Margaret Thatcher

Sweden seems happy.

[speechlesstx]

Sweden has been taking a right turn since the 90s.

[NeedKarma]

Isn't the US running out of money?

[NeedKarma]

Sweden has been taking a right turn since the 90s.

Not like your (US) right at all:

Over dinner in a Stockholm restaurant, an impressively multiethnic and multiracial group of Swedish conservatives (the majority of the group were immigrants themselves or the children of immigrants) argue that less has changed than meets the eye. "Swedish values," they argue, still emphasize economic security over economic liberty.
His party is formally known as the Moderates, and he goes to great pains to reassure Swedes that the party will live up to its billing.

American conservatives might find Reinfeldt disappointingly unconfrontational.

[speechlesstx]

Not like your (US) right at all:

Oh no? They're doing pretty much what we've called for and what Tal complains about every day:

Between 1980 and 1992, Sweden lost ground relative to other rich countries, according to a McKinsey study. Since 2009, however, Sweden has one of the faster-growing economies in Western Europe. The growth has been led by the private sector, where jobs are multiplying at what Radio Sweden calls "a record pace."

Sweden's right turn started back in the early 1990s, but the turn is being institutionalized under the prime ministership of Fredrik Reinfeldt. Reinfeldt is a cautious conservative in the manner of Britain's David Cameron. His party is formally known as the Moderates, and he goes to great pains to reassure Swedes that the party will live up to its billing.

American conservatives might find Reinfeldt disappointingly unconfrontational. Yet in five years in office, he has repealed Sweden's wealth taxes and inheritance taxes. He has reduced the labor taxes that pushed almost all home repairs into the black market. He has championed a simple powerful idea: Work should pay better than benefits. He is prevailing.

As he prevails, he changes the country's political culture.

Imagine that, eliminate wealth and inheritance taxes while reducing labor taxes and the private sector exploded. Meanwhile, Obama is taking us the other direction and our economy is stagnant, only to get worse the more he turns left and as the true cost of Obamacare becomes apparent..

[NeedKarma]

So is Sweden a socialist/communist country or a capitalist one? I get confused with your labels.

[speechlesstx]

So is Sweden a socialist/communist country or a capitalist one? I get confused with your labels.

I didn't label them anything, you are the one who mentioned Sweden. Try to keep up.

[speechlesstx]

Here you go NK, here's your Socialist success story...

The Hugo Chávez cult is over
Oil can no longer blind Venezuelans to their leader's failure. The flaws in Chávez's 21st-century socialism are all too clea

As Venezuelans get ready to head to the polls for the most closely fought presidential election of the past 14 years, one question is at the forefront of everyone's mind: does Hugo Chávez still have it? By "it", I mean his legendary, intense, emotional connection with the poor – a kind of attachment that has, for many, a feeling of religious fervour. Of faith.

"Chávez is the only one who has ever really cared about the poor" – you hear his supporters say it again and again, with real feeling, and now more than ever it's the centre of his pitch to voters.

Chávez: Heart of my Fatherland – the slogan turns up everywhere, right down to the water bottles given away to keep his supporters hydrated at rallies.

But 14 years on, as even his most hardcore supporters acknowledge, Chávez's experiment in 21st-century socialism isn't really working. After the chaotic nationalisation of most of the agro-industrial chain – from the farm to the supermarket – food shortages have become chronic, with various staples disappearing from shelves. Lines at subsidised government grocery shops are long, and particularly scarce commodities sell out almost the second they're delivered.

On closer inspection, the only thing that appears to be 21st century about Chávez's 21st-century socialism is the presidential Twitter account. The economy is still run along the same rigid lines that crippled eastern bloc economies for much of the 20th century. One after another, industries have been nationalised only to become outsized money-pits unable to produce the goods needed. The steel and cement industries can't produce enough to meet the country's housing needs; electric utilities have brought chronic blackouts throughout the country; and the phone company has failed to deliver adequate internet access. Venezuelans like to joke that Julian Assange passed over Venezuela for political asylum simply because the internet is so slow there.

Obama should steal that campaign slogan, "Obama: Heart of my Fatherland." I'm sure the cult of Obama would buy it... and we can be Venezuela.

[paraclete]

Here ya go NK, here's your Socialist success story...
Obama should steal that campaign slogan, "Obama: Heart of my Fatherland." I'm sure the cult of Obama would buy it...and we can be Venezuela.

Poor old Chavez he used the wrong model, nationalisation, state ownership of the means of production doesn't work, you tax business and the rich and support the poor otherwise you wind up with less due to lack of incentive. As long as tax isn't too high people will strive to earn more

Now BO knows you can do it, he has said so more than once, yes we can, pity he didn't define what it was, but from his actions I expect he means pay more tax