[tomder55]

Ummmm there is no HUMAN life until the egg is ferilized by the spem... I bet even Todd Akins knows that.

[tomder55]

Free contraceptives is a moral thing to do.

so much for libertarianism . A libertarian case to be made against forcing anyone to pay for someone else's medical care, or birth control.Free contraception is more in line with progressive liberalism.

[paraclete]

B/S Tom

[cdad]

Allow me to clarify. I think abortion should be legal at any time. Aren't they all. Prebirth? I was merely explaining why I have that stance. Ultimately, its her body.

The way the laws are written and where they vary is in the timing of an abortion. As in the using the saying "late term abortion" which is outlawed in many states that do allow abortion during the first trimester.

There is a huge difference as to what is going on biologicaly at those 2 points of gestation.

[tomder55]

Indeed . The truth is that it ceases being 'a mass of cells ' very early in the process .
Fetal development: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia

[TUT317]

The way the laws are written and where they vary is in the timing of an abortion. As in the using the saying "late term abortion" which is outlawed in many states that do allow abortion during the first trimester.

There is a huge difference as to what is going on biologicaly at those 2 points of gestation.

In biological terms I think it can be summed up in this way.

Science would try and tell us that at the early stage of development the fetus is not conscious. In other words, it's brain hasn't develop to a stage whereby we can satisfy the scientific definition of consciousness.
Non-consciousness would also satisfy the requirement of not being able to feel pain.

Science also claims to be able to tell us what consciousness actually is. On this basis it wants to claim that a fetus is conscious after 'x' number of months. Before this 'X' number of months the fetus is a living organism that lacks humanness because it lacks consciousness.

As far as I am concerned I have real problems with a scientific definition of consciousness, let alone when this consciousness actually manifests itself in a living organism.

We don't know what consciousness actually is so how can we say at what stage consciousness occurs. It may well be there at even the earliest stage of development.

Tut

[speechlesstx]

Cliff Lee would be a better choice to drop.

Been trying for a while, I just noticed they finally made him droppable.

[speechlesstx]

The sperm and egg were alive. Maybe potential human being would be more accurate?

There's no potential if it's aborted.

[speechlesstx]

In biological terms I think it can be summed up in this way.

Science would try and tell us that at the early stage of development the fetus is not conscious. In other words, it's brain hasn't develop to a stage whereby we can satisfy the scientific definition of consciousness.
Non-consciousness would also satisfy the requirement of not being able to feel pain.

Science also claims to be able to tell us what consciousness actually is. On this basis it wants to claim that a fetus is conscious after 'x' number of months. Before this 'X' number of months the fetus is a living organism that lacks humanness because it lacks consciousness.

As far as I am concerned I have real problems with a scientific definition of consciousness, let alone when this consciousness actually manifests itself in a living organism.

We don't know what consciousness actually is so how can we say at what stage consciousness occurs. It may well be there at even the earliest stage of development.

Tut

All the more reason to err on the side of life.

[excon]

Hello again,

Mr. Conservative, Barry Goldwater said:

"I am a conservative Republican, but I believe in democracy and the separation of church and state. The conservative movement is founded on the simple tenet that people have the right to live life as they please as long as they don't hurt anyone else in the process."

"The religious factions will go on imposing their will on others,"

"I don't have any respect for the Religious Right."

"Every good Christian should line up and kick Jerry Falwell's a$$"

"A woman has a right to an abortion."

That's a long way from the busybody party they've turned into.

Excon

[speechlesstx]

And yet you have no problem imposing your will on us. You want to impose gay marriage, single payer healthcare, open borders, gun control. You're fine with scrapping the first amendment and forcing the church to violate their beliefs via executive fiat.

When you stop imposing your will on us we can talk. Until then your complaints don't move me in the least.

[excon]

And yet you have no problem imposing your will on us. You want to impose gay marriage.. When you stop imposing your will on us we can talk.

Hello again, Steve:

When you stop saying that spreading FREEDOM to more and more people, is imposing my views on you, we can talk..

excon

[paraclete]

It is really a question of how you define freedom Ex if you define it as freedom to carry weapons and intimidate and kill your fellows, this is not freedom but tyranny, if you define it as the ability to benefit yourself above the interests of others, this is not freedom but averice, if you define freedom as the right to watch your fellows die without lifting a hand to prevent it, this is caliousness, I define freeom as everone sharing equally in the wealth of the nation, it is a lofty objective not yet reached, but it can be achieved. Talk is cheap, aside from labour the only thing cheap in a capitalist society, everything else comes at a price''There are those here who say give me more irrespective of social injustice and I say this is not freedom, this is greed

[tomder55]

And he went through a large bit of transformation as he got older. He favored a Constitutional ban on abortion until his final term in the Senate .
Goldwater was a conservative in 1964 when one of his major postions was for religious morality in society .Later when he abandoned those positions ,not so much . Liberals who love to quote Goldwater from his later years love to make it sound that those words were uttered when Goldwater was the leader of the conservative movement . Not so. He wrote those words in an editorial in 1994 . It is not the conservative movement that changed... it was Goldwater .

[speechlesstx]

Hello again, Steve:

When you stop saying that spreading FREEDOM to more and more people, is imposing my views on you, we can talk..

excon

Dude, interesting how you can define all of those as "expanding freedom," even denying my constitutional rights.

[excon]

He wrote those words in an editorial in 1994 . It is not the conservative movement that changed ...it was Goldwater .

Hello again, tom:

So, what you're saying is this: When you're young and have a heart, you're a liberal... When you grow up and get a brain, you become a conservative... But, when you acquire real WISDOM you become a liberal again..

Sounds right to me.

excon

[speedball1]

Got to say guys all 34 pages make for interesting reading.

When you're young and have a heart, you're a liberal... When you grow up and get a brain, you become a conservative... But, when you acquire real WISDOM you become a liberal again.

EXCON! I like your style. You're my kind of dude.
I'm 85 and I guess I forgot to turn conservative when I reached retirement age because for the next 13 years I was on the front line for a woman's right to choose.
I used to drive by the local abortion clinic and toot my horn and wave a coathanger at the protesters. One day I stopped to listen. 5 old men were ganging up on a young girl attempting to enter the clinic. Slutt! Murderess! Baby Killer! Were some of the nicest I heard. I was outraged. I volunteered as a escort the next day. Three years later vI was put con staff as head of security, chief escort and clinic spokesman.
I loved it! I got to go heads up against the protester and keep them in line. And if they got too frisky I got to bust and take them to court.
I was attacked 4 times, shot at twice, had two bomb scares and opened a phony Anthrax letter in our office. It was three days before HazMat got back with the report that it was flour. Three days of not knowing if you would live or die. It was a learning experience!
I've walked the walk and paid my dues for woman's rights. The clinic closed in 02 and I came on board here in 03. But bumping heads with a bunch of religious wackos will always remain the most fun job I ever had.
Excon, You haven't changed since the old days at AskMe.com. Don't ever change. I like you just the way you are. Cheers, Tom

[Magpie95]

Thank you, Tom, for all your contribution. It is refreshing to know people like you exist. What freedoms I have now, I know I owe to you and other brave folks like yourself. You are a true American patriot!

[speechlesstx]

Excon, You haven't changed since the old days at AskMe.com. Don't ever change. I like you just the way you are. Cheers, Tom

He's a little more crotchety.

P.S. We all despise right-wing wackos. You won't find the overwhelming majority of pro-lifers using any of those despicable tactics.

[excon]

You haven't changed since the old days at AskMe.com. Don't ever change. I like you just the way you are. Cheers, Tom

Hello Tom:

You and me...

excon