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speechlesstx · Jul 30, 2012, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by talaniman

No I ain't in favor of the money influencing politics, but the reality is if your side does it mine better too!

So your values are fluid after all.

tomder55 · Jul 30, 2012, 02:11 PM

Secondly, if this assumption is correct then can we use this as a basis for rejecting all or any types of government regulations?

I don't know why I have to keep answering this . I have said no to unnecessary burdensome regulation designed to limit competition ,and consolidate markets into the few that are either politically connected ,or big enough to comply . As I have said many times ,this is what causes 'too big to fail ' . I say there is no such thing.. when a company is 'too big to fail' ,they abandon moral hazard because they know that they have someone on the inside who will argue that it's best for the nation to bail their a$$ out . What made it even worse in the financial industry was that it was government regulation that forced them to abandon it .

If you look on the other thred I referenced this case (and the reason I referenced it is because it is a new fresh example of crony socialism at work; you will find a brilliant concurring decision by DC district justice Janice Rogers Brown .

talaniman · Jul 30, 2012, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

So your values are fluid after all.

Nothing wrong with my values, but if the law makes it legal, and you guys do it, so will I.

What, you expect me to show up at a gun fight with a knife? You'd love that wouldn't you?

paraclete · Jul 30, 2012, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by excon

The issue: During a period of mass economic misery, there's incredible success for a tiny financial elite!

excon

Yes Ex that statement has a ring of truth to it, there are some who can profit in adversity by anticipating a decline in the market.

talaniman · Jul 30, 2012, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by paraclete

Yes Ex that statement has a ring of truth to it, there are some who can profit in adversity by anticipating a decline in the market.

The game was rigged, that's what they anticipated.

speechlesstx · Jul 30, 2012, 02:50 PM

I'm not the one who just contradicted my very public core beliefs.

talaniman · Jul 30, 2012, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I'm not the one who just contradicted my very public core beliefs.

Me either

speechlesstx · Jul 31, 2012, 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by talaniman

Me either

You spend every day here slamming corporate influence and greed, now you say it's OK as long as it's from your side. It's either bad or it isn't.

excon · Jul 31, 2012, 04:55 AM

Hello:

Does a woman have a RIGHT to equal access to health care in the workplace?? Yes. Does an employer have the right to DENY a woman equal access to health care because he has a moral objection to it? No.

I'm a Jew.. Can I require my employees to wear yarmulkes? Let's say I'm a Christian Scientist, and don't believe in medicine AT ALL. Should my religious rights be upheld? Let's say I'm a Wiccan. Can I force my employees to work on Christmas? What if I'm a Quaker. Can I refuse to pay taxes because some of them go to pay for war? What??

We've had these discussions before... IF the state grants you a license to do business, the state can set the criteria.. It seems to me, that the criteria ought to be straightforward, instead of letting every employer decide for himself what coverage he's going to provide his employees..

It boils down to a fundamental issue of competing rights... You come down on the employers side.. I come down on the employees side.. Ain't no surprise in that.

excon

paraclete · Jul 31, 2012, 05:09 AM

All you can be certain of is the game is rigged

TUT317 · Jul 31, 2012, 05:27 AM

Originally Posted by tomder55

I don't know why I have to keep answering this . I have said no to unnecessary burdensome regulation designed to limit competition ,and consolidate markets into the few that are either politically connected ,or big enough to comply . As I have said many times ,this is what causes 'too big to fail ' . I say there is no such thing .. when a company is 'too big to fail' ,they abandon moral hazard because they know that they have someone on the inside who will argue that it's best for the nation to bail their a$$ out . What made it even worse in the financial industry was that it was government regulation that forced them to abandon it .

If you look on the other thred I referenced this case (and the reason I referenced it is because it is a new fresh example of crony socialism at work; you will find a brilliant concurring decision by DC district justice Janice Rogers Brown .

Hi Tom,

You don't have to keep answering that question because that is not the question I am asking.

Is economic freedom guaranteed in the same way as as freedom of speech and freedom of religion? If so then does this leave open the possibility that any government regulation impinges on that freedom? In other words, could one argue away any attempt to impose government regulations because it is unconstitutional?

Tut

paraclete · Jul 31, 2012, 05:32 AM

Heavy, tut, what you are saying is it is unconstitutional in the US to do anything but sit on the porch

TUT317 · Jul 31, 2012, 06:44 AM

Originally Posted by paraclete

heavy, tut, what you are saying is it is unconstitutional in the US to do anything but sit on the porch

Hi Clete,

Yes. I am also saying that it is of little use complaining about the 'black robed oligarchs' while at the same time looking for the opportunity to challenge legislation enacted by congress.

Tut

speechlesstx · Jul 31, 2012, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by excon

Hello:

Does a woman have a RIGHT to equal access to health care in the workplace??? Yes. Does an employer have the right to DENY a woman equal access to health care because he has a moral objection to it?? No.

I'm a Jew.. Can I require my employees to wear yarmulkes? Let's say I'm a Christian Scientist, and don't believe in medicine AT ALL. Should my religious rights be upheld? Let's say I'm a Wiccan. Can I force my employees to work on Christmas? What if I'm a Quaker. Can I refuse to pay taxes because some of them go to pay for war?? What???

We've had these discussions before... IF the state grants you a license to do business, the state can set the criteria.. It seems to me, that the criteria ought to be straightforward, instead of letting each and every employer decide for himself what coverage he's going to provide his employees..

It boils down to a fundamental issue of competing rights... You come down on the employers side.. I come down on the employees side.. Ain't no surprise in that.

excon

Yes we've had this discussion before, a church is not a business.

But sorry, it's not as simple as me coming down on the employer's side, I am an employee after all. The fact is we have this thing called free association. If I don't like what my employer offers I'm free to go elsewhere. If I don't work on their terms they're free to dump me, unlike useless, tenured professors and other bad teachers.

I come down on the side of liberty, you come down on the side of government coercion. That's what it boils down to.

talaniman · Jul 31, 2012, 08:18 AM

If a business has to be coerced to give equal protection under the law, so be it. Subjecting employees to the values of the employer is taking away that equal protection under the law.

tomder55 · Jul 31, 2012, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by TUT317

Hi Tom,

You don't have to keep answering that question because that is not the question I am asking.

Is economic freedom guaranteed in the same way as as freedom of speech and freedom of religion? If so then does this leave open the possibility that any government regulation impinges on that freedom? In other words, could one argue away any attempt to impose government regulations because it is unconstitutional?

Tut

No the constitution allows a limited power to regulate commerce . The point of the Rogers concurrence was to point out that since the 1930s ,SCOTUS has allowed the central government to exceed it's constitutional mandate.

speechlesstx · Jul 31, 2012, 08:28 AM

If a business has to be coerced to give equal protection under the law, so be it. Subjecting employees to the values of the employer is taking away that equal protection under the law.

That's one of the most asinine statements I've ever read but it does fall in exactly with Obama's "you didn't build that" worldview. In your world the only way a business can operate is under your jackboot. Employers wouldn't even have the right to fire unproductive or unscrupulous employees in your world. Ask the French how that's working out for them.

talaniman · Jul 31, 2012, 08:39 AM

I don't have to ask any one as I have been there done that, and can tell you that your statement is flawed by fear and what ifs! You really need to stop applying your narrow view of the world to others who live in the larger universe.

I mean damn guy, have you even tried to walk a mile in somebody else's shoes? Others have rights too, just as important as YOURS!

speechlesstx · Jul 31, 2012, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by talaniman

I don't have to ask any one as I have been there done that, and can tell you that your statement is flawed by fear and what ifs! You really need to stop applying your narrow view of the world to others who live in the larger universe.

I ask you to see how that's working out for the French, you refuse and I'm the one who needs to consider the larger universe? Do you even read what you type?

I mean damn guy, have you even tried to walk a mile in somebody else's shoes? Others have rights too, just as important as YOURS

I refuse to dignify that with a response.

excon · Jul 31, 2012, 09:13 AM

Hello again, Steve:

Let me see if I can expand our discussion...

Exxon made over $40 BILLION last year.. There's STILL oil on the ground in Prince William Sound. And, yes, the clean up is over..

Now, when I look at this situation, I see a culpable company who HAS the money to complete the job. If I had the GOVERNMENTAL authority, I'd MAKE them do it...

When YOU look at this situation, you see a company enjoying the fruits of its own labor. Should the government make 'em do anything?? Of course, not.

excon