[paraclete]

Hi Smoothy,


This wouldn't be some sort of massive generalization?


France is in Europe.

Health Care Lessons From France : NPR

Of course it is a generalisation and smoothy here is another the US health care system costs are out of control, the costs of your so called better health care are making insurance companies rich and the population poor

[TUT317]

of course it is a generalisation and smoothy here is another the US health care system costs are out of control, the costs of your so called better health care are making insurance companies rich and the population poor

I think that every health care system would be suffering at the moment under some type of austerity measures. The provision of health will always be a political football. Nonetheless, it important that it boils down to the system that is the most efficient in terms of money being poured into it.

It's chalk and cheese at the moment. Unless of course France doesn't exist in Europe or anywhere else.



Tut

[tomder55]

Yeah France exists . I can't comment on their health care system except to observe that the new government plans on lowering retirement age... which means there will be even less productive workers to fund their plan . I wonder how fiscally sound their plan is now . I suspect ,;like most western nations ,their entitement systems are rapidly driving towards a cliff.

[paraclete]

I think that every health care system would be suffering at the moment under some type of austerity measures. The provision of health will always be a political football. Nonetheless, it important that it boils down to the system that is the most efficient in terms of money being poured into it.

It's chalk and cheese at the moment. Unless of course France doesn't exist in Europe or anywhere else.

Tut

Generalisation doesn't suit this argument, our health system is not suffering under austerity measures although I agree that political parties like to kick the ball down the road now and again. The French system probably works for french people but not for foriegners just as ours works for our people

[smoothy]

of course it is a generalisation and smoothy here is another the US health care system costs are out of control, the costs of your so called better health care are making insurance companies rich and the population poor

At least they aren't making the population dead here in the USA while they are forced to wait months or years for needed procedures like in other countries...

Hell... the Canadian Prime minister came to the USA for a surgery and paid for it out of pocket rather than deal with the Canadian system.

I'm making LESS generalizations than most are... how many here have Personal long term, current and recent experience with the health care systems in more than one country? Hands please? I have. And watching it on TV or reading about it in a newspaper doesn't count.

[paraclete]

No smoothy I must say I have been fortunate during my visits to other countries not to avail myself of their health care system, although if I were to go today that might be different. It is true that in some systems you might wait for procedures depending upon whether you are insured or not, however none of that clouds the facts that the US system is very expensive relative to other countries and you have to wonder why, the standard of care is not necessarily greater, or at least not so much greater as to warrant the disparity in costs and that must bring into question the enterprenerial nature of both the health care providers and the insurers

[smoothy]

no smoothy I must say I have been fortunate during my visits to ther countries not to avail myself of their health care system, although if I were to go today that might be different. It is true that in some systems you might wait for procedures depending upon whether you are insured or not, however none of that clouds the facts that the US system is very expensive relative to other countries and you have to wonder why, the standard of care is not necessarily greater, or at least not so much greater as to warrant the disparity in costs and that must bring into question the enterprenerial nature of both the health care providers and the insurers

Its expensive because you get a higher level of care here, now when you need it... without rationing or waiting.
If you have been in the insides of hospitals in several countries you would see what I am talking about...

I have inlaws in Italy... I have a condo there and spend a substantial amount time there annually, and have over the last 20 years... PLUS I lived and worked there for 6 years prior to that. SO I've got 26 years and counting experience with European Socialized medicine.
ANd of course... I'm 50 and been through the ER more than a few times here myself and had two surgeries here.

I have a list of people of all ages that died over there (Italy) ranging from 19 to 70 I knew personally that likely would have survived in the USA. From coworkers to friends to a girlfriend to a father-in-law. I've accompanied more than a few through the emergency rooms over there as well.

[paraclete]

smoothy I have wound up in ER here a couple of times late at night and the standard of care couldn't be better, but like everywhere else there have been isolated nightmare stories. I am glad I don''t live in a major city. Now our Hospitals are what you might describe as socialised medicine at least that's where you are going to go if you need the ER and I think our survival rate is fairly good.

[TUT317]

Its expensive because you get a higher level of care here, now when you need it....without rationing or waiting.
If you have been in the insides of hospitals in several countries you would see what I am talking about...

I have inlaws in Italy...I have a condo there and spend a substantial amount time there annually, and have over the last 20 years...PLUS I lived and worked there for 6 years prior to that. SO I've got 26 years and counting experience with European Socialized medicine.
ANd of course....I'm 50 and been through the ER more than a few times here myself and had two surgeries here.

I have a list of people of all ages that died over there (Italy) ranging from 19 to 70 I knew personally that likely would have survived in the USA. From coworkers to friends to a girlfriend to a father-in-law. I've accompanied more than a few through the emergency rooms over there as well.

What you seem to be saying is that you have experienced the health care system of a few countries. Italy and America are the ones you mention.

The point I am making is that the Italian system is not the French system, is not the English system, is not the Spanish system. They all be called universal health care systems, but there are important differences in a number of areas, notably private and public funding of the systems.

When it comes to information, newspapers and T.V. can provide both accurate and inaccurate information. A lot can also depend on the political leaning of the particular media. Best to source your information form as may different areas as possible.

Tut

[smoothy]

smoothy I have wound up in ER here a couple of times late at night and the standard of care couldn't be better, but like everywhere else there have been isolated nightmare stories. I am glad I don''t live in a major city. Now our Hospitals are what you might describe as socialised medicine at least that's where you are going to go if you need the ER and I think our survival rate is fairly good.

I can't compare those in Australia to either Europe or the USA.. Never been there and don't currently know anyone (off this site) that have been both places long enough to compare.

I was comparing a quite large Provincial Hospital in Italy to several different ones in the USA I have been through the doors of in my life.

[paraclete]

Smoothy, I think you will find the standard of care varies throughout the world and dare I say the USA. Socialised medicine does not cause the standard of care to decline it is the standard of training. I have know Australian doctors who have gone to the US to practice medicine and in that instance I don't think the standard of care would have been what either of us might expect

[smoothy]

What you seem to be saying is that you have experienced the health care system of a few countries. Italy and America are the ones you mention.

The point I am making is that the Italian system is not the French system, is not the English system, is not the Spanish system. They all be called universal health care systems, but there are important differences in a number of areas, notably private and public funding of the systems.

When it comes to information, newspapers and T.V. can provide both accurate and inaccurate information. A lot can also depend on the political leaning of the particular media. Best to source your information form as may different areas as possible.

Tut

I generally disagree with most of what I see on TV, radio or in print. What they print is HEAVILY dependent on their political leaning... even to the point of printing patently false information. The New York Times and Washington Post are two examples I am choosing. Being I have personally seen unfiltered events and data over the years BEFORE the media got their hands on it and distorted it. Often enough I'm not even sure they don't try to spin the weather too. No I'm not going to print how and where online, lets just say I started to find this out in the Mid 80's. When I witnessed a gang fight and shooting in Baltimore then saw how wrong ALL of the TV stations where when they reported on the events that happened... and there were very few witnesses there. The rest in the following years I'm not putting online.

The systems in Europe aren't all that much different from each other... you are going to find variances even within a country... the main point I was making, none of them are the models of perfection claimed by much of the left leaning media here in the USA who have the mindset of a bushel or crabs... ( you don't need a cover as the crabs will pull any that try to climb out back in) . Where they have a mindset nobody else is entitled to something better than what THEY can get free... or a race for the bottom so to speak.

Don't remember where you live TUT, though I think you have told me in the past.

[smoothy]

Smoothy, I think you will find the standard of care varies throughout the world and dare I say the USA. Socialised medicine does not cause the standard of care to decline it is the standard of training. I have know Australian doctors who have gone to the US to practice medicine and in that instance I don't think the standard of care would have been what either of us might expect

I can't speak for Australia... only Europe... and the Brits frequently publish accounts of HUGE problems within their system... that are well known and easily found, and the French are so socialist leaning in nature... I don't trust anything they claim. That country and much of Europe are in such a mess now mostly as a result of the cost of socialized medicine of other massive social programs that drain their economies.

I'd still rather be in a hospital in the USA than anywhere else in the world. Never claimed our system was perfect... just that it has fewer problems than the others. And like any business... what you can provide in services is dependent on the money you have coming in for offering it.

Doctors aren't going to bust their butts for eight years of Med school alone to make as much as the average burger flipper that never went to college.

[smearcase]

I have no personal knowledge or experience at all on this issue (comparison of care in other places vs U.S.)
Just an outside observation.
A neighbor of mine who was from UK and had been here in US for maybe 2 yrs (and this was about 8 years ago) had to have some serious stomach surgery here in US. I simply asked him how he was doing and he said he was fine and had received excellent care but he missed the system that he had previously in UK and felt that it worked much better.
I can only assume that he was talking about administratively.
My only problem personally here in the US is the paperwork jungle, etc. Trying to reach the Dr's office by phone is the first hurdle, then trying to find out if a particular Dr. accepts my insurance and really not having much confidence in the answer I receive from the Dr.'s office staff. Then if I get past that hurdle depending on what my Dr. orders done after my visit there may be Dr's, labs, radiologists who will be involved down the line and I have no way to check if they accept my insurance. I may only find out when I get the bill.
I had an anesthesiologist come to my room at about 10PM on the night before an upcoming early morning minor surgical procedure a few years ago- and he was there to tell me that he was going to be my anesthesiologist the next morning and he didn't participate in my plan- but I could arrange (between the hours of 10PM and 7 AM) to get another Dr. if I chose to. Yeah, right.
In my area of the East Coast, it takes 2 months to get an appt. with most specialists, even when I lied and told them I was severely ill. My small town of less than 10,000 people and major hospitals on the east coast about 100 miles away. No real difference with wait time. (The comments near the end of this post I have not experienced so much locally).
Most of the specialists require referrals even though my plan doesn't require referrals which is just more hassle for me, a hassle that I pay a higher premium to avoid.
I haven't had any serious illnesses to deal with (yet) I am happy to say but I feel sorry for the people who are seriously ill because I think they probably get the same level of cooperation I do.
I overheard an elderly gentleman in the coffee shop at a major metropolitan hospital-- well-known institution telling who I think was his daughter--
"Whenever I try to ask these folks in my Dr's office here a question--they always act like I am interrupting them and they seen annoyed with me" and his daughter (?) said--"Well I was in this hospital for several days recently and that's exactly how I was treated in that situation too".
But I think that the old guy summed up pretty well what I experience many of the places I go- "annoyed" pretty well describes it.
But there are quite a few exceptions where the staff(s) are not annoyed, but they are hard to find sometimes.
I don't know which system is better because I haven't personally experienced both but there is much room for improvement in my little corner of the world here in the U.S.
I won't dwell on the mistakes experienced by several friends and relatives (and near mistakes caught by their advocates--I was the advocate in several of the cases and the patient in a few too) who happened to be with them when the mistake was about to be made) but most of the mistakes were of the life-threatening variety. All within the past two years.
I avoid the medical system like the plaque to be honest.
I think that the system in my region certainly has made some people dead. Waiting two months for a specialist can certainly cause that and maybe the person has no idea whether the symptoms could be very serious and doesn't pursue other options (or just plain can't pursue other options- like expensive ER's, or travelling many miles etc (and the travel wouldn't help in my area-it's the same in most of the institutions large and small that I have experienced. But I recently stumbled into a big medical center that seemed to be different (much better) and I try them out next time I need to. I haven't given up completely.

[paraclete]

well smearcase we certainly don't have those problems here the system works seamlessly. In my last vist to the ER I walked out of the hospital after a two day stay after signing one piece of paper. In my last visit to the GP I walked out after signing one piece of paper, Both had my details recorded, but both would have used an electronic billing system which would have had them paid very quickly. I recently had both X-ray and CT within a day of referral and walked out after signing one piece of paper

we do have waiting times to see specialists here however urgent cases are handled very quickly. My son in law had an industrial accident, they had problems with his blood pressure in the ER and within a day determined he had a cancer on his adrenial gland, he was operated on two days later in a specialist oncology unit in a major city hospital and back home in a week

[TUT317]

The systems in Europe aren't all that much different from each other ....you are going to find variances even within a country..

Hi Smoothy,

I am one of these annoying Aussies who question everything. For example, "The systems in Europe aren't all that much different from each other....you are going to find variances even within a country.."

There is an obvious contradiction in your above sentence. Are they different or are they the same?

. the main point I was making, none of them are the models of perfection claimed by much of the left leaning media here in the USA who have the mindset of a bushel or crabs...( you don't need a cover as the crabs will pull any that try to climb out back in) . Where they have a mindset nobody else is entitled to something better than what THEY can get free... or a race for the bottom so to speak.

Don't remember where you live TUT, though I think you have told me in the past.

Can't disagree with what you say about the media. However, you said that European socialized medicine sucks compared to your own system. You already, say how unreliable the media can be when it comes to presenting us with information . I agree with that. You cite two examples, of different health care standards in two countries that you have experiences.

Therefore, I am still interested to know how you reached your conclusion that all European countries are the same when it comes to universal health care?

Perhaps I can make a suggestion. You disagree with it on ideological grounds. There is nothing in you posts that support that contention other than the things you mentioned. Your posts provide no tangible way of testing if European universal health services are of the same standard.

So it's an ideological objection you have?

Tut

[smoothy]

Hi Smoothy,

I am one of these annoying Aussies who question everything. For example, "The systems in Europe aren't all that much different from each other....you are going to find variances even within a country.."

There is an obvious contradiction in your above sentence. Are they different or are they the same?




Can't disagree with what you say about the media. However, you said that European socialized medicine sucks compared to your own system. You already, say how unreliable the media can be when it comes to presenting us with information . I agree with that. You cite two examples, of different health care standards in two countries that you have experiences.

Therefore, I am still interested to know how you reached your conclusion that all European countries are the same when it comes to universal health care?

Perhaps I can make a suggestion. You disagree with it on ideological grounds. There is nothing in you posts that support that contention other than the things you mentioned. Your posts provide no tangible way of testing if European universal health services are of the same standard.

So it's an ideological objection you have?

Tut

I disagree with it on every level. I also happen to think welfare should be a one year then you are out thing also...
I believe people should pay their own way... I.E. if you don't pay for something then you don't get something.

However I've also got a perspective people who have never been there themselves have...

How did I come up with the simularities among European countries... well the fact that they are next to each other and many of them have the mentality there that if someone's getting something they ought to get it too.(happens between states in the USA too)... plus there is a degree of people traveling around there in the course of doing business. Europe is physically about the same size as the USA. People thus are familiar with what their neighbors do... then you have the European Union thing too. While I have not worked in other European countries... I actually could if the opportunity came up (I have essentially immigration rights and work papers in Italy that predate the EU and are curently valid along with a taxpayer ID there, I could have dual citizenship within 6 months by asking for it). I also have a circle of long time friends that have... one of them is a practicing Doctor currently working in Florence Italy. And his rather large family have all done much volunteer work in the medical field... France being high on the list of places they were in most often. I've been good friends with them since early 1988. I still talk with him frequently. The rest of his family to various degrees as well.

So... its a mix of first hand experience... (USA and Italy) and what I've gotten from a them (Italy, and Europe).

It's a simple comparison on may things... what the Socialized system in Europe doesn't cover... (which are many things I have mentioned) that are covered or at least heavily discounted in the USA.


And as far is my first statement... its self explanitory... its like that everywhere on the planet... including the USA. Some places just don't have the same levels of service others have... I.E. your small rural places rarely have the same service quality as a major metro area would have.

I've included some much smaller more rural hospitals in my USA experiece that still exceded what you would get in a far larger Italian hospital, wasn't limited to a single hospital, comparing to THREE in Italy... all major poulation centers in their area... and five specifically in the USA... three of which are smaller, and two of which are in an Economically depressed area.

And as far as how bad the media distorts things? As bad as it might be here... its even worse other places, specificallty instances I know of In Europe...

I've actually tracted ONE specific major incident over the last 20 years ( had two friends that lost their lives in the event)... it STILL gets frequent news coverage... and still is being whitewashed... meaning I know stuff about the event that I know at least some others know as well that still never came to light. And no I'm not going to be the one that does for a number of reasons.


Now with all of that said... there is ONE thing that you can get at least in the Italian system you won't get here in the USA.

I understand that they will cover LASIK eye surgery... in fact I'm going to ask my long time Ophthalmologist over there (known him for 24 years)... never got it done there because I'm not there long enough for the fllowup visits. Or get it over here because its pretty pricey (glasses are not a huge annoyance I've worn them so long)... plus he recommended I wait a will longer as they get better at it all the time. Most of my eyewear I've had the last 24 years has come from him. Except for two pair I replaced locally because I broke them.

[TUT317]

Hi Smoothy,

Leaving the other things aside for the moment. You given an account of what you call a mix of first hand experiences. As near as I can make out you then go on to say that all of this leads us to a simple comparison of things. Can't disagree with that. In fact it is an extraordinary simple comparison. So simple that as a methodology it is of no value when it comes to comparing European countries.

What does the availability of services in the United States have to do with a comparison between European countries? Would it not be helpful to compare services between European countries?

But why have you switched to talking about services when your original statement was about systems and models of health care. Now you seem to be talking about availability of services based on geography. You have already told us about how geography plays a role in the level of services in Europe and the USA. So why have you introduced services in the equation?

Tut

[paraclete]

Its an academic argument Tut and an ideological one. smoothy is convinced the level of service in his country is superior (isn't everything in the US, except their knowledge of the other 95% of humanity). He may be right but by any measure of cost effectiveness the US fails to deliver. The most expensive system in the world that doesn't deliver to a large percentage of their population and the strange thing is they don't want to change it, when you can see them chasing cheap goods and services all over the world and beggaring their own nation in the process. If medicine could be deliverd from India they would go for it

[tomder55]

and the strange thing is they don't want to change it,

No one said that . I just don't buy into the socialized solution.
I think more free market consumer choice is the direction we should be going . You see it in services that are not traditionally covered by the insurance industry like Lasik surgery . Prices are dropping as it has become a more competitive elective procedure.