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JudyKayTee · Mar 19, 2012, 05:53 AM

I'm happy and relieved for anyone who doesn't have to sign the papers, make the gut wrenching decision. I can only address my own experience.

I was asked multiple times if I wanted to remove my husband from life support. Multiple times. They tested and tested and tested and determined he was brain dead and it was hopeless - meanwhile I watched this big, strong, vital man, much to young to die, convulse on a several-times-a-day basis, his body packed in ice bags, his arms strapped to the bed, machines pumping oxygen and fluids in and out of him.

Did I ever think I would stand at his bedside and pray for his peaceful death? No. Did I? Yes, I did.

I also asked him at the end. I didn't get an answer or eye blinking... or anything else.

So I signed the papers. And, yes, I still have nightmares.

NeedKarma · Mar 19, 2012, 06:11 AM

Originally Posted by excon

of course i do, but this is not a fact based question.. I didn't actually pull the plug.. She left me before i could..

lol!

mogrann · Mar 19, 2012, 07:03 AM

Judy I feel your pain in what you wrote.

JudyKayTee · Mar 19, 2012, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by mogrann

Judy I feel your pain in what you wrote.

Thanks - that means a lot to me. There are nights when despite everything that has changed in my life since that time, much of it for the good, that I still second guess myself.

I preach living wills, do not resuscitate orders, talking to your loved ones every chance I get.

My husband had all of those in place BUT the ambulance attendants didn't read them so they "brought him back," the hospital "couldn't find the paperwork" so "they brought him back" - and it was beyond my control until my Attorney stepped in.

And I will pay a very sincere compliment to J9 and all the RN's out there. When the Doctors fumbled for words (they knew my husband personally) and hugged me and told me to hang on the Nurses are the ones who explained the tests, explained what was happening, helped me through a very difficult time. They were the unsung heroes.

J_9 · Mar 19, 2012, 08:16 AM

Judy... you just made me cry. Thank you for the compliment.

And yes, we do cry with our patients and their families through these though times.

mogrann · Mar 19, 2012, 08:18 AM

You have made me think.. I think Hubby and I shall sit down tonight and write up something to give to our family doctor. I do not want to put him in that situation during a stressful time.

hexian · Apr 1, 2012, 06:33 PM

Essentially, the question you are asking is can you murder a corpse. Brain death means actual death. This applies legally and medically. It isn't like a coma or a vegetative state. It's death. There are no tricky "right to die" questions.

However, your dead wife would typically only be left on a ventilator if she has declared that she wished to donate her organs after her death, so deactivating the equipment used to keep her tissue oxygenated would demonstrate an insensitive disregard for her wishes.

JudyKayTee · Apr 2, 2012, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by hexian

Essentially, the question you are asking is can you murder a corpse. Brain death means actual death. This applies legally and medically. It isn't like a coma or a vegetative state. It's death. There are no tricky "right to die" questions.

However, your dead wife would typically only be left on a ventilator if she has declared that she wished to donate her organs after her death, so deactivating the equipment used to keep her tissue oxygenated would demonstrate an insensitive disregard for her wishes.

Not in my area - where was your experience that a person who is brain dead is removed from a ventilator, only remaining on the ventilator if there is a "wish" to donate organs?

This is the opposite of my personal experience.

And I am told if you are Jewish you are alive until your heart stops so that issue enters into the discussion.

Trust me - I've walked this path.

hexian · Apr 4, 2012, 04:36 PM

In the United States, unless there are specific religious objections, a dead body is only ventilated long enough for the family to make a decision on organ donation. By her "wish" I meant if she had signed an organ donor registry or granted durable power of attorney, which are legally binding regardless of the family's (in this example, the husband's) intent.

Orthodox Judaism is about the only time that cutting ventilation to a corpse is a controversial issue. Many Muslims and some Christians don't consider death to have officially occurred until the heart has stopped (consequently, they consider heart donation to be murder), but they do consider it permissible to end ventilation on a person with a complete loss of neurological function.

JudyKayTee · Apr 4, 2012, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by hexian

In the United States, unless there are specific religious objections, a dead body is only ventilated long enough for the family to make a decision on organ donation. By her "wish" I meant if she had signed an organ donor registry or granted durable power of attorney, which are legally binding regardless of the family's (in this example, the husband's) intent.

Orthodox Judaism is about the only time that cutting ventilation to a corpse is a controversial issue. Many Muslims and some Christians don't consider death to have officially occurred until the heart has stopped (consequently, they consider heart donation to be murder), but they do consider it permissible to end ventilation on a person with a complete loss of neurological function.

This was NOT my experience. Please post your research or knowledge. What does "typically" mean? Usually? Sometimes? Now and then?

I had to get an Attorney to take my late husband off the ventilator.

I was told by an Orthodox Rabbi that death was unnatural until/unless my late husband's heart stopped of its own accord... and that "own accord" did NOT include life support measures.

J_9 · Apr 4, 2012, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by hexian

In the United States, unless there are specific religious objections, a dead body is only ventilated long enough for the family to make a decision on organ donation.

This is not my experience either. I know of a child that was born over 15 years ago that is still on a vent from the date of birth.

JudyKayTee · Apr 5, 2012, 05:00 AM

I have found that discussions on this subject end up with a lot of what people have heard and read. Actual experiences are very, very different - and I don't know why that is.

J_9 · Apr 5, 2012, 05:31 AM

Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

I have found that discussions on this subject end up with a lot of what people have heard and read. Actual experiences are very, very different - and I don't know why that is.

It's because of "them." You know who "they" are Judy. Right? It goes like this...

Well "they" say that blah blah blah. No one has actually ever identified the group of people that go by the name of "they." :p

JudyKayTee · Apr 5, 2012, 06:37 AM

Priceless! The sad part of this discussion - and you work with life and death every day so I'm sure it's no surprise to you - is that when you've actually experienced this pain, this terrible decision, it's difficult enough... and then everyone knows how "it" works because "they" told them and, of course, the person who actually had the experience MUST be wrong.

Sad and it never ends.

J_9 · Apr 5, 2012, 06:41 AM

No it never ends. It's surprising how many "nurses" I have met who have never gone to nursing school but have no problem telling me how I'm doing everything wrong when their loved one is in labor. You know why? Because they watch those shows like A Baby Story and One Born Every Minute!