[classyT]

WG,

You said yourself you gave your kids YOUR truth. That implies there are other truths. Is there? I'm just trying to understand how you see Christianity.

[classyT]

Upsides: Most of them have the Golden Rule. The LDS Church is strong on families and morals. The Buddhists offer themes of morality, justice, and love, even life after death. And so on.[/QUOTE]

WG-

But the Golden Rule as good as it is... isn't the gospel. If someone dies without Christ where does that leave them?

Would you consider yourself more of a universalist?

[Wondergirl]

Upsides: Most of them have the Golden Rule. The LDS Church is strong on families and morals. The Buddhists offer themes of morality, justice, and love, even life after death. And so on.

WG-

But the Golden Rule as good as it is...isn't the gospel. If someone dies without Christ where does that leave them?

Would you consider yourself more of a universalist?

Why would you say that? I'm a Christian with everything that means.

Did I say I believe what all other religions teach?

[classyT]

So basically you'd do nothing since praying pretty much equates to doing nothing.

Well of course I disagree with you on that. I pray plenty and the Lord answers me. Recently my son was given tickets to a rap concert.. Drizzy Drake was coming to town. The kid is 19. I'm not going to tell him he can't go even though he STILL asked me if it would be OK. ( I thought that was sweet) Anyway I really didn't want him to go but I wasn't going to stop him. I prayed... guess what? Drake up and cancelled the concert had to return all the money to ticket holders. Coincidence? I'm sure you think so but I don't.That is but a MINOR prayer.. but even something a small as that the Lord heard me and answered with a YES.

My boys have accepted Christ as their savior and I believe once you are saved you are saved. I won't and don't have to pray for their salvation.

[classyT]

Absolutely not! (unfortunately) The world would be a better place if they did open their minds and realize they aren't the only ones who have "truth."

NO. You never came right out and said you believed other relgions but what do you mean by the above quote. I'm not trying to offend you... I'm trying to understand you. What are you saying?

[Synnen]

Classy--I think she's saying that she embraces tolerance of the beliefs of others.

Just because SHE believes in Christ, doesn't mean that EVERYONE does--and their truth is different from hers or yours.

I am not Christian, so the Bible has no more weight to me than any other book. There are great ideas in the Bible, but there are also ideas that I consider to be damaging and intolerant. That doesn't mean I don't accept your right to believe it. I just don't believe it myself. I recognize it to be YOUR truth, but it's not mine.

So I think that WG just understands that what she believes to be the truth (Christianity) isn't the ONLY truth in the world, because other people see a different truth. That doesn't mean ANYONE is wrong--just that we all see the "truth" differently.

Hopefully, I'm not putting words into WG's mouth here--if so, I apologize.

[NeedKarma]

I'll take a stab at it. No one has a monopoly on any universal truth. Just being a christian and spelling truth with a capital "T" doesn't mean one knows any more or is a better person that anyone else. People are individuals. That's the way I see it.

[Wondergirl]

WG,

You said yourself you gave your kids YOUR truth. That implies there are other truths. Is there? I'm just trying to understand how you see Christianity.

The Golden Rule is a truth. Family values and morals are truth. Love, peace, and kindness are truths.

[Wondergirl]

So I think that WG just understands that what she believes to be the truth (Christianity) isn't the ONLY truth in the world, because other people see a different truth. That doesn't mean ANYONE is wrong--just that we all see the "truth" differently.

Hopefully, I'm not putting words into WG's mouth here--if so, I apologize.

Nicely said, Synnen.

My former coworker Manisha is a Hindu. She is from a Hindu family and has been a Hindu all her life. She is kind and peace loving and devoted to the teachings of Hinduism. She would not easily become a Christian any more than I would easily become a Hindu. She is one of the most generous and agreeable people I have ever met (as are most of the Hindus I know). She is more Christ-like than many Christians I know.

Maybe there will be more than Christians in heaven?

[classyT]

Classy--I think she's saying that she embraces tolerance of the beliefs of others.

Just because SHE believes in Christ, doesn't mean that EVERYONE does--and their truth is different from hers or yours.

I am not Christian, so the Bible has no more weight to me than any other book. There are great ideas in the Bible, but there are also ideas that I consider to be damaging and intolerant. That doesn't mean I don't accept your right to believe it. I just don't believe it myself. I recognize it to be YOUR truth, but it's not mine.

So I think that WG just understands that what she believes to be the truth (Christianity) isn't the ONLY truth in the world, because other people see a different truth. That doesn't mean ANYONE is wrong--just that we all see the "truth" differently.

Hopefully, I'm not putting words into WG's mouth here--if so, I apologize.

Hey, fair enough. I get that.. what I don't get is double talk. The only problem with Christianity is Christians. We ( and I include myself) don't always represent Christ. Christ is love and grace, mercy and kindness. I'm convinced if Jesus were here you wouldn't think Christianity was damaging or intolerant. If there is one thing I am learning as I get older it how crummy of a job I have done in representing Him.

[classyT]

I'll take a stab at it. No one has a monopoly on any universal truth. Just being a christian and spelling truth with a capital "T" doesn't mean one knows any more or is a better person that anyone else. People are individuals. That's the way I see it.

NK,

LOL thanks for setting me straight. Darn I couldda swore using a capital T for truth would make you see it better. I'm guessing using the capital T after classy ain't working for you either. :D

[classyT]

Maybe there will be more than Christians in heaven?

? It is statements like this that make me think you are a universalist.

I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me. John 14:6

I don't know how you get around that verse. And listen WG, I agree with you. I agree with you about knowing people of different faiths that are kinder, sweeter and better people than some of those that own the name of Jesus. I don't have all the answers but I won't compromise what Jesus said either.

[NeedKarma]

NK,

LOL thanks for setting me straight. Darn I couldda swore using a capital T for truth would make you see it better. I'm guessing using the capital T after classy ain't workin for ya either. :D

Sorry I don't know what that means.

[Wondergirl]

I don't have all the answers but I won't compromise what Jesus said either.

Glad you admit don't have all the answers. I don't either.

Here's what Jesus said about who will make the cut into Heaven:

Matthew 25:31-46 (NIV)
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Believing in Jesus means acting on what He said to do, to care for others, even the least of them.

When I was a little girl, I believed only Missouri-Synod Lutherans would go to Heaven.

When I got a bit older, I believed only Lutherans would go to Heaven.

As a young teen, I believed only Protestants would go to Heaven.

Once I finished a Christian college, I believed Christians would be the only ones in Heaven.

Then, years later, I worked with people of all faiths and even with agnostics and atheists, and learned most people are good and do their best to minister to "the least of these." So I'm figuring God will agree that all of those who behave as Jesus said to behave will be in Heaven someday.

Otherwise, Heaven's going to be a pretty empty place with only a few evangelical Christians there.

[classyT]

Sorry I don't know what that means.

I don't think I have EVER met anyone in person or online that didn't get ME as much as you don 't. It was meant to be a joke. Sort of... nevermind.

[classyT]

Glad you admit don't have all the answers. I don't either.

Here's what Jesus said about who will make the cut into Heaven:

Matthew 25:31-46 (NIV)
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Believing in Jesus means acting on what He said to do, to care for others, even the least of them.

When I was a little girl, I believed only Missouri-Synod Lutherans would go to Heaven.

When I got a bit older, I believed only Lutherans would go to Heaven.

As a young teen, I believed only Protestants would go to Heaven.

Once I finished a Christian college, I believed Christians would be the only ones in Heaven.

Then, years later, I worked with people of all faiths and even with agnostics and atheists, and learned most people are good and do their best to minister to "the least of these." So I'm figuring God will agree that all of those who behave as Jesus said to behave will be in Heaven someday.

Otherwise, Heaven's going to be a pretty empty place with only a few evangelical Christians there.

Well, I understand your journey more than you think I do. But I can say this... without Jesus Christ, we aren't getting there. But I do believe that Jesus is far more gracious and loving than we are. And I do believe there will be many that simply accept him by faith that we don't expect or know anything about. Could it be an encounter with him just before the soul leaves the body? Perhaps there is an in between state where Jesus is able to minister to them... maybe? But I don't believe anyone will be there without him. I base that on the Bible.

[Wondergirl]

And I do believe there will be many that simply accept him by faith

And have done what He asked?

[Wondergirl]

without Jesus Christ, we aren't getting there.

Whom do you think will be in Heaven? Any Muslims, Hindus, atheists? How about Catholics or Jews?

What are the exact beliefs needed to get to Heaven? Belief in six 24-hour days of creation? Jonah swallowed by a great fish? Noah and his ark full of animals and seven other people floating around on a totally submerged Earth?

God will condemn those who died mentally ill and were spiritually incapable of seeking Him? All those who lived and died without ever hearing about Jesus are eternally condemned?

[classyT]

WG,

I believe the bible and what God has to say concerning salvation. The bible is crystal clear salvation comes by accepting Jesus Christ as our savior. It has nothing in the world to do with our behavior. Why? Because it doesn't matter how good, kind, and loving a person is.. without Jesus they are still in their sins. Once they accept the Lord the bible makes it clear they are spiritually put IN CHRIST. Therefore they are justified and made completely RIGHTEOUS. God sees them just as if they never sinned. All sins are completely removed and we exchange our sin for His righteouness. How can this be? I don't know but just as Jesus became complete and total sin for US on the cross we become HIS righteousness. God judged HIM for our sin. He wants us to accept that gift... it is free but it must be accepted. It's a good deal.

Here is the thing... you can't just set Jesus aside and say his work doesn't matter. God gave up his Son for us. It is a slap in his face to think we can get to the Father apart from the Lord Jesus. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Therefore sincere, sweet, kind people of other faiths are still sinners in need of a savior and they can't be good enough. If any of us could be good enough, why did Jesus have to die? In fact the Bible says the law was given so mankind could see they can't be good enough. No one is going to heaven apart from the Lord Jesus. Paul explains how it all works in the book of Romans.

Now concerning those who lived before the cross. They too are in heaven by faith we get that in the book of Hebrews. The blood of bulls and goats covered the peoples sins until the Lord Jesus came and removed them completely.Will Jews be in heaven? Please. Jesus WAS born a JEW. But this side of the cross, they aren't getting there without HIM.

As far as mentally ill, and people who have never heard of the name of Jesus, I believe the bible and it states Shall not the judge of the earth do right? God is merciful and loving and I trust completely that he takes care of them. Again, perhaps the Lord comes to them and ministers just before actual death takes place. I don't know... I do know my God is good. He is just, loving, kind and is not willing that ANY should perish. And I believe with all my heart they are in heaven. Same with babies.He takes care of those that are spiritually incapable.

However the spiritually capable aren't going to heaven apart from accepting him. Will there be Muslims, Hindus, atheists, catholics or Jews? Of course. But NOT apart from Jesus. They will have had to accept him before they died. I base my beliefs on what God says. Shall not the judge of the earth do right? And anyone that is of those faiths will no longer be in heaven obviously. I can't imagine a practicing atheists, Muslim, Hindu there.There will not be different christian denominations there either. Nope the bible says we will be worshipping the Lord Jesus forever. Again, I believe many people will be there that were of these faiths but NOT EVER apart from calling on his Name at some point before they die.

Having said all of that our Christian churches are full of people claiming to believe In the Lord Jesus Christ and they don't. They have heard the gospel and it has made no real impact on them. It doesn't affect them one way or the other. They are Christians by name only. They go to church because they think it is the right thing to do or they think they are scoring points. Many so called Christians have no clue of how Christianity works, what exactly has been done for them, what is even needed to be saved. I had a women who had been to church all of her life ask me... "saved from WHAT?" It is shocking, frankly.

I believe in six 24 hour days of creation, I believe Jonah was swallowed by a great fish and I believe Noah built an ark and God destroyed all that were not IN the ark. As ridiculous as all of that may sound to the world. BUT that isn't the gospel. People can lay on their death beds never believing ANY of that and go to heaven as long as they accept the Lord Jesus as their savior.

Now, let me ask you a question. Do you believe that apart from accepting Jesus and his work on the cross people will be there? And if you do, what do you base this on? Logic? Fairness? Tolerance? Sincerity? Is there more than one way to heaven? Because to me, it sounds as if you believe there are many paths to God as long as the person is sincere. But I think Joel Osteen said it best... there are many paths to JESUS but only one way to God. I liked that.

[classyT]

And have done what He asked?

OK.. I hope I'm not beating a dead horse but what he asks is for us to believe him. To humble ourselves to recognize we can't be good enough and accept his FINISHED work on the cross. If you shalt confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, YOU SHALL BE SAVED! That's it. That's the gospel. Nothing more... nothing less.