[tomder55]

What you thought those bridges would get built with just American building materials??

Strangely I don't object to the use of foreign materials... must be the free trader in me.

The point is we don't need to hire extra military personel to peel potatoes. I don't see why that would be desirable .

[talaniman]

Well we know somebody has to peel the potatoes! I suppose that getting someone else to do it, leaves the soldiers free to soldier.

Its an unfortunate thing though that as we trim the fat, downsize, or reorganize, SOMEBODY loses a job over it. To be honest, my pet peeve is a lot of honest blue collar factory work, has been replaced with flipping hamburgers, washing dishes, and turning down beds.

It was those manufacturing jobs after WWII that lead us to the BOOM that made us the most industrious nation in the world, and it's a shame we have allowed ourselves to be downgraded from a leading super power to what we have now.

Not accusing or pointing fingers, simply reminiscing.

[tomder55]

I suppose that getting someone else to do it, leaves the soldiers free to soldier.

Yup

It was those manufacturing jobs after WWII that lead us to the BOOM that made us the most industrious nation in the world, and it's a shame we have allowed ourselves to be downgraded from a leading super power to what we have now.

That's "progress" for you .

I don't have an answer except thus ever was.
I would add the caveat that after WWII we were the only game on the planet so it wasn't very tough to compete.

[excon]

Hello tal:

It IS a lot like crying over spilled milk. The time to STOP the jobs from going overseas was BEFORE they went overseas... But, they're gone now, and they ain't coming back...

We need to invest in the NEW economy. The only one of those I see on the horizon is the GREEN economy... But, the wingers ain't having NONE of that. They're just "HOPING" something happens to "CHANGE" things... Snicker, snicker..

excon

[talaniman]

I can agree Ex, because things are changing but some don't want it to.

A tug of war at the moment.

[tomder55]

200,000 jobs lost in Ohio alone because the courts stopped a plan to frack. That's 200,000 high paying jobs... jobs Americans will do!!

The Western Hemisphere is the 21st century Persian Gulf of natural gas and oil ;but only the US refuses to participate . Even liberal Canada is on the bandwagon..

[excon]

The point is we don't need to hire extra military personel to peel potatoes. I don't see why that would be desirable .

Hello again, tom:

The potatoes need to be peeled.. We either pay very little to get it done, or we pay a lot. I don't see why it would be desirable to pay a lot.

excon

[tomder55]

You think the military is just another civil service job ? It costs a lot of money to train military personel . It wastes a lot of money training soldiers and sailors to peel potatoes and run kitchen services when there are food service companies that can do it better and cheaper. It saves the government money to contract services to the private sector .That's just the fact.

[excon]

That's just the fact.

Hello again, tom:

That's what they SAY. I don't believe it.

excon

[talaniman]

Neither do I,

President Puts Defense Contractors on Notice: Crackdown on Costs Is Coming - WSJ.com

Taxpayers Get Stuck Saving Defense Contractors' Pensions | Mother Jones

Defense Contractor Fraud | Federal and State Claims Act Resources

Medicare Fraud & Healthcare Fraud - Investigating Qui Tam Law

Counterfeit parts threatening DOD supply chain; contractors to be held more responsible -- Washington Technology

Add that to the "60 Minutes" piece two months ago, which I can't get a link for, we have a lot more facts to add to the food of thought. Some menu, huh!

[tomder55]

Indeed all contractors should be put on notice that budgetary priorities means that pencils will be sharpened and fat trimmed from the budget... I already said defense is not immune... all bureucrats should simularily be put on notice..

Mother Jones may single out defense contractors ,but it may be a surprise that that is standard issue for all government contracts going back many years. Of course it is absurd and should be a procedural change and certainly eliminated from future contracts .

[paraclete]

Have you fellows ever conceived of the possibility that is the problem is the system, in this case the military system which is unable the conceive of the concept of cost.

Look the way to deal with bureaucrats whether military or not is to tell them that the budget is cut to a specific figure and tell them to prioritise to reach that figure. We all know that there is waste and inefficiency no matter where you go. How hard can it be?

[tomder55]

Why limit it to defense ? There is not an agency in government that isn't bloated and an inefficiently run organization. It's the nature of the beast. THAT IS WHY YOU WANT TO LIMIT THE SIZE AND SCOPE OF THE GOVERNMENT .

[talaniman]

How about effective, and efficient, Tom, and cuts where cuts can be made based on efficiency rather than size.

Think surgeon and not butcher. Government is not business, and you can't run it that way. No more than you can run your household like one just because the priorities for government, business, and house holds are vastly different, and have to be managed differently.

Business doesn't care about people, they care about profits, and will shed people to achieve that goal. Government has to service people no matter the bottom line, and households have to sustain, and maintain people, no matter what happens, no matter what governments, and business does.

No matter how you dice it, it comes down to money, and how well that money is circulated. Any dynamic that stops that free circulation, hurt all, business, government, AND households (people), and NO corporations are not people, they are business.

In this manner we can prioritize as such,

Households (people), government that serves the people, and business, that facilitate circulation. If they don't function well together, we have what we have now, a recession with a lot of poor people who's number grows as we speak.

If you don't want to print more money, then you must circulate better what you have. Find the blockage, and free the circulation, and then send some of those robbers to jail.

That's the bottom line in my eyes, we got robbed big time, and we the people haven't formed a posse or told the sheriff to get busy and get the robbers.

Follow the money, it's a very bright paper trail.

[tomder55]

Some need a surgeons scapel ;some need a cleaver or chain saw ;some need amputation.

[TUT317]

200,000 jobs lost in Ohio alone because the courts stopped a plan to frack. That's 200,000 high paying jobs ....jobs Americans will do !!!!

The Western Hemisphere is the 21st century Persian Gulf of natural gas and oil ;but only the US refuses to participate . Even liberal Canada is on the bandwagon ..

Hi Tom,

You don't think that's the end of it do you?

Don't worry these corporations will be working hard in a number of areas to over ride state and local authorities. They will win through in the end. Too many lawyers, too many resources and too much money.

How about these corporations use 'personhood' as a starting point for their campaign against the wishes of local communities who are worried about the impact of fracking?

Tut

[tomder55]

Almost all the communities that are affected are basically living in an economic depression and have been for much longer than the 2008 bank failures.
Go ask the people of Ohio ,Western Pennsylvania ,and upstate NY if they want drilling .

Ask them if the want the same economic opportunities that the folks of North Dakota have.

Thanks to production of the Bakken shale fields, North Dakota enjoys the highest employment rate in the country. New home construction is booming, and builders are having a difficult time keeping up with consumer demand. And while many states are facing historic budget deficits, North Dakota is reaping the benefits of growing oil revenues that have generated back-to-back budget surpluses.

In Pennsylvania, development of Marcellus shale gas has already translated into 140,000 new jobs and $11.2 billion in economic output during 2010, according to a recent Penn State University analysis. And beneath much of eastern Ohio lies the relatively untapped Utica Shale formation, which the Ohio Oil and Gas Energy Education Program estimates will create 204,000 new jobs in a state that experienced the third-highest job loss during since the recession began. Moreover, economic output will increase by more than $23 billion and wages by $12.3 billion during the same time frame, the program concludes.

Energy Production Is Turning Economic Lights Back On - Energy Intelligence (usnews.com)

Gas fields are taking shape in the rural counties southeast of Cleveland, and that's no wind farm. Gas is a proven fossil fuel with a global market. In natural gas, some see an economic catalyst with the strength and reach to spark an industrial renaissance.

Already, steel mills are expanding in anticipation of a shale gas boom in Ohio, Pennsylvania and West Virginia. Spin-off industries are expected to spring up to supply the machinery, laborers, lodging and chemistry that energy production demands, and to exploit a new local power source.

"We'll now possess a cheaper, dependable, industrial fuel. That's hugely important for us," says Edward Hill, an economics professor at Cleveland State University.

As gas flows, Ohio can expect to see new pipelines, new refineries and new petrochemical plants, Hill and others say, as well as expansion by energy-dependent manufacturers.
Each week, residents of Northeast Ohio see new evidence of the economic potential. Youngstown has been watching a massive new steel mill rise from desolation. Marathon Oil is expanding its capacity to accept oil -- Ohio oil -- at its refinery in Canton. Republic Steel announced it is reinvesting in Lorain. Earlier this month, hundreds lined up at a hotel in suburban Akron for a novel event: a job fair for the gas rigs.

http://blog.cleveland.com/business_i..._can_reig.html

Natural gas and crude oil industry could help create and support more than 200,000 Ohio-based jobs from the leasing, royalties, exploration, drilling, production and pipeline construction activities for the Utica shale reserve. The state could experience an overall wage and personal-income boost of $12 billion by 2015 from industry spending.

The study also projects royalty payments to landowners, schools, businesses and communities could increase to as much as $1.6 billion by 2015—a number that exceeds the total amount of royalties distributed by Ohio’s natural gas and crude oil industry in the last decade. Total tax revenue from oil and gas exploration and development in the Utica shale formation from 2011 until 2015, including severance, commercial activity, ad valorem (property), federal, state and local taxes, is projected to be approximately $479 billion. Industry expenditures related to Utica shale development could generate approximately $12.3 billion in gross state product and result in a statewide output or sales of more than $23 billion.

http://www.oogeep.org/downloads/file...ber%202011.pdf

The environmentalists don't have a case . The impact is minimal . The fracking occures well below(thousands of feet) where the ground water and aquifers sit. This is not new technology . Fracking has occurred in over a million wells in the US for over 6decades. There has never been a case of ground water contamination where hydraulic fracking is utilized .

EPA also reviewed incidents of drinking water well contamination believed to be associated with hydraulic fracturing and found no confirmed cases that are linked to fracturing fluid injection into CBM wells or subsequent underground movement of fracturing fluids. Although thousands of CBM wells are fractured annually, EPA did not find confirmed evidence that drinking water wells have been contaminated by hydraulic fracturing fluid injection into CBM wells.

http://www.epa.gov/safewater/uic/pdf..._exec_summ.pdf

So if it is a proven clean method going back 6 decades then what is achieved by the President delying a decision for 6 more months ? Could it be that he wants to make a dramatic announcement in the spring of a Presidential campaign will at a campaign stop in a key swing state like Ohio ? Nahh . He wouldn't delay the creation of 200,000 jobs for political reasons

[talaniman]

I don't know where you get your scientific facts on this but my own experiences and research tell a different story, and with the millions that are affected by soil, and water contamination being newly identified, caution is the ONLY approach, like what we should have done with asbestos, and we know how that turned out.

'Fracking' for natural gas is polluting ground water, study concludes - CSMonitor.com

Impact of Oil & Gas Drilling on Ground Water | eHow.com

Fact Check: Contamination Of Groundwater By Fracking Was Documented In 1987 | ThinkProgress

Duke University Study Connects Water Contamination to Fracking Natural Gas Wells - Natural Gas Watch.org

And the case can be made that the decades of sub standard testing and data, have left many coommunitie already with the need to ship bottle water to towns and homes. Lets be clear, they are just learning of all the chemicals used in frakking, and the resulting heavy metals that are not tested for yet.

Tap Water Contamination - Tap Water in 42 States Contaminated by Chemicals

[tomder55]

Ummm mine was from the EPA site

Actually I have read that there is an abundance of dihydrogen monoxide in the aquifers affected .

[talaniman]

My position is that unless you specifically look for a particular toxin, you won't find them.

There are many we should be looking for.