[excon]

Hello:

You heard it last night. President Bachmann and/or Cain WILL torture.

Simply NOT engaging in it himself, like Obama did, does NOTHING to prevent future administrations from doing it... He HAD a chance to end it FOREVER. He didn't. Instead, he put it on the shelf for ANY future president to use, and USE it they WILL.

In my view, THIS is one of his BIGGEST failures...

excon

[paraclete]

Nothing new here Ex it goes with the territory. You would be naiave in the extreme not to expect that the intelligence services and the military would use whatever techniques they find effective. It might help you to understand why they haven't been as effective in prosecuting wars in Iraq and Afghanistan as they should have been

[tomder55]

Huh ? The truth is that the President did ban the use of waterboarding .
Ensuring Lawful Interrogations | The White House
The truth is that he also had no problem taking credit for the fruits of its application (ie all the intel that led to OBL ) .

[paraclete]

All those poor B*****ds tortured in Gitmo and they didn't find OBL and you try to justify torture, you are as twisted as BO

[tomder55]

There weren't any "all those poor b....."

There was KSM waterboarded in a very controlled procedure ;and he provided the gaps in the intel that the Clintoons let slide for most of a decade.
And yes ,the intel from that not only led to OBL ;but also stopped in it's track more than one terror operation underway against the US . Sorry if your sensibilities are offended.

[paraclete]

And tell me how is victory in Afghanistan going (where most of those poor B****ards came from)? Did your torture bring you victory? If torture found you OBL you want to look at your techniques because ten years is long time, so waterboarding not so effective, eh?

[tomder55]

Cut and run is a political decision . There was no torture. It was enhanced interrogation . Waterboarded KSM sang like a canary ;and in the process gave up the nom de guerre of one of OBL's courier.

Of course we now know that the President was so quick to crow that he did not exploit the intel obtained in OBL's lair . He could've waited a few days before announcing that the Bush policies had worked.

Yeah it took time.. that's because it took surveillance ops several years before they were able to use the info obtained . It's not like OBL had one courier . He had a network of them. But it was the info gained from KSM that unlocked the puzzle.
That was a bonus in my view. The fact that they were able to bust up active terrorist plots that would've killed many New Yorkers if successful is enough for me to say go for it.

[paraclete]

. there was no torture. It was enhanced interrogation .

Enhanced interrogation which means torture, like rendition means kidnapping and sanction means assassination, You yanks love inventing words and phrases so you can say what you mean without telling anyone what you mean. We are not stupid Tom we understand what you mean.

[excon]

We are not stupid Tom we understand what you mean.

Hello clete:

When they say it's only torture if organs fail, the only people they're fooling is themselves..

excon

[paraclete]

I think we should waterboard Tom and see if he thinks it is torture, perhaps we could tickle him with some electrodes, only 12v after all, No I know we will play him some rock music at 130 db for a few hours. These gentle enhanced interrogation techniques are sure to please him so much he will cry for more.

[tomder55]

Here's a clue... it's not supposed to be pleasant .It was used in a very limitted controlled way and it was very effective in filling in some very important gaps in our knowledge of the enemy.
When I weigh that against the lives saved from the thwarted attacks I go away convinced it was the right thing to do at the time .