[excon]

I think most people would agree that conservatism reflects more liberty.

Hello again, TUT:

No, they don't!

Let's talk about liberty ON THE GROUND instead of the highfaluting rhetoric going on here. Besides, I don't even know what a troglodyte is.

Although the attempt behind the Patriot Act was to "protect" America, it TOOK AWAY civil rights that we had. Conservatives did that... Even though Gitmo was supposed to PROTECT Americans, it TOOK AWAY our Fifth Amendment right to due process of law. Conservatives did that. Even though preventing gays the right to marry supposedly preserves American values, it DENY'S rights to a MAJOR portion of the American population. Conservatives did that. Even though allowing the government to READ our email and LISTEN in on our phone calls is supposed to make us safer, it is NOTHING like liberty or freedom in my book. Conservatives did that...

On the other hand, it IS true that the socialistic fire department that we all depend on, TAKES away the rights of the PRIVATE fire department's to find work. That's not freedom for them. It IS true that black children who were forced to learn in segregated classrooms were FREED by LIBERALS... Conservatives didn't like that.. In fact, they'd LIKE to go back to that era...

I could go on, but you get my drift... Conservatives LOVE freedom - for THEMSELVES, and THEMSELVES ONLY.

excon

[tomder55]

It IS true that black children who were forced to learn in segregated classrooms were FREED by LIBERALS... Conservatives didn't like that.. In fact, they'd LIKE to go back to that era...

The race card you carry is so big it doesn't fit in your pocket. Your narrative suffers however from historical inacurracy even as it has become a well polished slander.

I remind you that the god of the American liberals Roosevelt appointed KKK'ers into SCOTUS like Hugo Black and segregationists like Jimmy Byrnes (ultimately becoming one of Roosevelt's top advisors) . The libs for years returned KKK'er Kleagle Robert Byrd to the Senate. Governor and later Dem Senator Senator Ernest Hollings was a proud segregationist.
Among the Dems during the very "liberal" Johnson era were liberal Dems who very much opposed the 1964 Civil Rights act including :
J. William Fulbright,a man Bill Clinton considers his mentor ;- Albert Gore Sr ,father of the Goracle ;Sam Ervin of Watergate hearings fame ;Richard Russell ,who's name is used for the Senate office building .
40% of the House Democrats VOTED AGAINST the Civil Rights Act, while 80% of Republicans SUPPORTED it.
It was a Republican President who sent Federal troops to the South to enforce desegregation as it was Republican adminstrations after the Civil War that used Federal troops during the Reconstruction era .

[excon]

40% of the House Democrats VOTED AGAINST the Civil Rights Act, while 80% of Republicans SUPPORTED it.

Hello again, tom:

You are correct. But, the Democrats who voted against it became the new CONSERVATIVE Republican majority in the south.

I repeat. Black children were freed from segregated schools by LIBERALS. Ending segregation was opposed by CONSERVATIVES..

excon

[tomder55]

You can have your false narrative of history . You would have to bring more to the table to prove the outrageous assertion that conservatives today want to return to the days of segregation.

[excon]

you would have to bring more to the table to prove the outrageous assertion that conservatives today want to return to the days of segregation.

Hello again, tom:

The Wake County, N.C., school district has dismantled its integration policy. A new conservative school board took over, filled with Tea Party members who decided to abolish initiatives to integrate schools along racial and class lines.

Charles and David Koch, billionaire brothers and Tea Party backers bankrolled the local Tea Party candidates.

Anything else?

excon

[tomder55]

Forced busing proved to be a colossal failure wherever it was tried in the past ;especially in liberal Boston. Doing it under a different name produces the same failures. I'll argue that the money wasted on busing programs would be better spent in improvements in the district schools .

Are the parents given a choice ? No . I'll believe the parents want their children bused to other schools when a system of vouchers is initiated where the parent indeed gets to choose which school their children go to.
You proved nothing in this example. I'll point to the Orthodox community near me that has a majority board membership in a diverse community who consistently vote in their parochrial best interests. Does that make them racists ? If you are telling me that schools within the same district were getting unequal funding and resources then you may have a case. But no one has made that claim.
Edit :
How did busing work out in liberal Seattle ? Well ;turns out it was a 2 decade nightmare.

Initially limited to a few thousand middle school students, by 1981 nearly 40 percent of all the district’s students were being bused for racial reasons. School officials defended busing against several legal challenges but gradually scaled back the program in response to waning public support. The district’s own data showed that busing disproportionately burdened children of color, undercut academic achievement, inhibited parental involvement, contributed to so-called "white flight,” and did little to reduce racial isolation in the schools. By 1999, when race-based busing finally ended in Seattle, it was widely regarded as "one of those well-intentioned social experiments that don't work"

HistoryLink.org- the Free Online Encyclopedia of Washington State History

[excon]

I'll argue that the money wasted on busing programs would be better spent in improvements in the district schools

Hello again, tom:

I got it. It's CHEAPER to keep the niggers down on the farm, huh? I'll bet that was the SAME argument the Tea Party School board used when they TOOK AWAY the RIGHTS of the little black children.

Like I said above... Conservatives LOVE freedom for THEMSELVES, and THEMSELVES only

excon

[paraclete]

For Ex so we can get this thread back on theme. Ex you say you don't know what a trogladite is. Let the urban dictionary help you, by the way the other descriptions were unprintable
Trogladite
From the prehistoric insects that lived in caves, troglodite is someone who is "out of it," or not "up" on pop culture.
Trogladite
A female who has been generously whipped with the ugly stick.
Trogladite
A mutant creature so vile, its very presence causes famine, slavery and apartheid. Extreme cases result in genocide.

We were discussing the attitude of the UK PM who wants to shut down social media to prevent urban violence

[excon]

we were discussing the attitude of the UK PM who wants to shut down social media to prevent urban violence

Hello again, clete:

I appreciate your attempt to keep the thread on point.. However, I'll answer as I please.

excon

[paraclete]

Hello again, clete:

I appreciate your attempt to keep the thread on point.. However, I'll answer as I please.

excon

Don't be a trogladite Ex by the way here's an example closer to home
We'd shut off mobiles again, says US transport official after protest

You want to discuss racial issues let's have a new thread.

[excon]

Don't be a trogladite Ex

Hello again, clete:

If you could keep up, you wouldn't have to call names.

excon

[paraclete]

Hello again, clete:

If you could keep up, you wouldn't have to call names.

excon

Why should I slow down for you Ex be careful you are not being lapped

[tomder55]

If you think that my opinion that spending money to improve schools is the equivalence of saying " keep the niggers down on the farm" then that is a discussion ender. I'm not going to waste my time responding to that.

Like I said you have a convenient race card in your pocket that most libs use when they can't forward a debate . It will only work on me if I take the bate... I won't . Think of me as you will . It's the patronizing liberal attitude that thinks a Black child can't learn unless they sit next to a white student .
Busing has a record of failure .It failed to achieve it's goals and it diverted resources to improve schools . It led to a continued decline of the inner city schools .


The record of our education system's decline with decades of liberal policies is a matter of public record. You as a proponent of progressive policies own that record not me. It is across the board liberal policies that have hurt the prospects of African-Americans in this country . Your own Seattle school district saw busing as a bad idea and abandoned it. Most districts in the country have followed suit .Wake County is late to the game .
From the article I posted :

By the late 1980s, the voices of dissent were coming from all sides, including some of the same white liberals and African Americans who had originally endorsed busing. Critics complained that the Seattle Plan unfairly burdened children of color; contributed to a widening achievement gap between white and minority students; undermined public confidence in the schools, particularly among middle-class parents; left some schools under-enrolled while others were over-enrolled, and was too costly and complex.

By the early 1990s, some of the most vocal critics of mandatory busing were African Americans, including the charismatic John H. Stanford (1938-1998), superintendent of Seattle schools from 1995 to 1998. In a key presentation to the School Board in November 1995, Stanford said the data showed that low-income students who attended schools outside their neighborhoods scored lower on achievement tests than low-income students in neighborhood schools. Furthermore, parental involvement in the schools was lowest among bused students, who often needed it the most.Stanford also noted that about one-fourth of Seattle's school-aged children were enrolled in private schools, a far higher percentage than in comparable cities without mandatory busing. In some white, middle-class neighborhoods in Seattle, only about half the children were choosing public over private schools, compared to 90 percent of those in racially mixed, poorer neighborhoods. Stanford urged the board to put more emphasis on the quality of the education in the classroom and less on the color of the skin on the students. "I don't have to sit next to someone of another color to learn,"he said, in an oft-quoted remark (Seattle Post-Intelligencer, 1999).

[excon]

Hello again, tom:

Bussing doesn't work in the long run. It was a short term solution in the hopes that full societal integration would follow. It happened here. That's why bussing ended. If it didn't happen in NC, there were other considerations at work. Maybe there is a flavor of racism there that's absent here.

I really don't know.. What I DO know, is that integration works even if bussing to achieve it, doesn't. So, instead of throwing up their hands and going back to the way it was, the school board should have made OTHER attempts to solve the problem. The key here is that they WENT BACK to the way it was.

Now, I don't know if the school boards action reflects the wish's of the Koch brothers, but I can put two and two together.

excon

[tomder55]

I don't know the Koch Bros. All I know about them is the harping the left does about them . I know no one who takes their marching orders from them . I heard of the policies that have become the platform of conservatives and the TP long before I heard of them . So at best they've identified a group of people who are like minded and they have $$ to contribute.
It's a much a waste of time to hold the Koch Bros responsible for TP positions as it would be for me to try to make the case that Soros is a puppet master to the progressive movement. I know what organizations he funds .It would be silly for me to say that Soros predates the progressive platform.

So what do I know of the TP and conservative platforms ? We believe that the best way to advance education is to give parents choice through charter schools , vouchers ,and tuition credits ,teacher accountabilty which includes merit pay for outstanding teachers .
If the Koch Bros support that then I'm happy they are funding groups to advance it.

[tomder55]

Clete the debate is happening here although flash mob violence has not escalated to the degree that it has in the UK... yet.

Cameron has not suggested a wholesale shutting down of access to social media ;but is considering the possibility for anyone suspected of using it for criminal activity.

Here during a 4th of July celebration a violent flash mob in Cleveland "spontaneously " erupted . That prompted the City Council to pass a measure (eventually vetoed by the Mayor ) that made it illegal to use social media to incite violence.

You cite the BART example . They went too far. In that case it was to protest against alleged police brutality .

In LA a DJ sent out a twitter message that had possibly thousands converge on Hollywood Blv. The crowd became rowdy . The city ;caught unaware ,had to waste valuable resources to crowd control. Such a demonstration would require obtaining a permit under normal and reasonable times . The DJ should be given a bill for the service the authorities were forced to use for the stunt.

Near-riot in Hollywood: Tourists caught up in 'Electric Daisy' chaos - latimes.com

[paraclete]

Hi Tom

We see this sort of thing with gate crashers at parties, it hasn't become particularly violent but it wastes police time, like dealing with a 1,000 people crashing a party. I would not like to see Cronulla or Redfern again with an escalation of rabble rousing on social media, it was used relatively ineffectively then. What I don't want to see is police powers which can shut down communication networks and that is what is at the root of the UK proposals, and unfortunately bad ideas have a habit of migrating

[tomder55]

and unfortunately bad ideas have a habit of migrating

Especially when the voice of the free world is mute when real tyrants employ those methods.

[paraclete]

Voice of the free world. Likely to be the first to implement the methods. Free is a much overused concept.

[tomder55]

More proof that the trogladites are here in force.

Police scramble to fight flash-mob mayhem - CNN.com

Kansas City sets youth curfew after weekend shooting | Reuters