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speechlesstx · May 5, 2011, 09:36 AM

So far that's 2 examples... today. There are MANY more going back years, not to mention again the movie fantasizing about his assassination. This is not new and it's not just a lone wacko or two.

Now, I know most liberals love their country, but the America haters come from the left, too and it's no small contingent.

speechlesstx · May 5, 2011, 09:40 AM

I can't forget this either, Cafepress at one time offered this t-shirt for sale:

NeedKarma · May 5, 2011, 09:54 AM

Christian Conservatives Praying for God to Kill Obama

excon · May 5, 2011, 09:55 AM

Hello again, Steve:

If you want to play the hate card, I got one... In my view, those people who support TORTURE (or enhanced interrogation if calling it that makes you happy) HATE America!

I mean really, really HATE the country I love...

Put that in your hate pipe and smoke it.

excon

speechlesstx · May 5, 2011, 10:07 AM

That must include the administration, too.

smoothy · May 5, 2011, 10:07 AM

There is the last 3 years of Obama blaming Bush for everything... including the stuff Obama himself did AFTER Bush was no longer in office.

NeedKarma · May 5, 2011, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

That must include the administration, too.

That's right - everyone in America hates America - except for you of course.

smoothy · May 5, 2011, 10:11 AM

I'm all for more torture of terrorists. In fact I don't think you can torture foreign terrorists too much.

Just not Americans who aren't terrorists.

There is nothing in the Constitution that says"Thou shall not torture or do things to terrorists they find unpleasant".

Because Terrorists aren't normal people.

excon · May 5, 2011, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

That must include the administration, too.

Hello again, Steve:

Did I STUTTER?? Maybe I didn't make myself clear, although I usually don't have that problem... Those who torture in my name, HATE my country!

If you want to use the PC term, enhanced interrogation, I'll go along, but (wink wink) we ALL KNOW what we're talking about here. So, let me say it again, those who support water boarding by ANY name, HATE the country that I love. Do you want me to say it again?

If you're amongst that group, tell me WHY you hate my country..

excon

speechlesstx · May 5, 2011, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by excon

Did I STUTTER??

Nope, I gotcha.

If you're amongst that group, tell me WHY you hate my country..

Like Obama realized when he took office, I know the realities of this world necessitate certain things that can get kind of ugly. I wish it weren't so but it is.

"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." - Winston Churchill

[Rudyard Kipling's] "grasp of function, of who protects whom, is very sound. He sees clearly that men can only be highly civilized while other men, inevitably less civilized, are there to guard and feed them." -George Orwell

"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it." - Aaron Sorkin (A Few Good Men)

excon · May 5, 2011, 10:59 AM

Hello again, Steve:

Here's your problem. You conflate vigorously protecting the country with the need to torture. I DON'T. I vigorously defended the country, and I did it LEGALLY.

Those who resorted to ILLEGAL acts using the defense of the country as their excuse, DEFAMED my beloved Constitution. They're despicable. They HATE the Constitution and the country it serves.

You quote the colonel from "A Few Good Men", but you left off the ending.. The colonel was sent to PRISON for violating the law, no matter how pretty his rhetoric was. The same thing should happen to the torturers.

excon

speechlesstx · May 5, 2011, 12:59 PM

I knew what happened to the colonel, it was still a good quote. He was sent to prison for ordering the hazing of one of his own men that resulted in his death if I recall. As it should be.

You and I have different definitions of torture. I don't consider sleep deprivation torture. Waterboarding, maybe. All I know is if it were me that had the opportunity to get information from a known scumbag that would save say, my wife or kids, I'd do just about anything it took to get that information. Wouldn't you?

excon · May 5, 2011, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

All I know is if it were me that had the opportunity to get information from a known scumbag that would save say, my wife or kids, I'd do just about anything it took to get that information. Wouldn't you?

Hello again, Steve:

If the question were asked with equivalent values, the answer would be no, as I assume yours would be...

Here's the problem with the ticking time bomb scenario.. It makes great politics, but lousy logic. It only works if you KNOW the guy you are about to torture KNOWS what you THINK he knows. But, of course, in the real world, you CAN'T know what he knows. It's simply not possible. You can THINK it, but you can't KNOW it. Even if Muhammod and 20 of his friends TOLD you he knows, you can only THINK he knows...

So, the answer to your question is yes, if the guy in front of me KNOWS stuff that would save my wife and kids, I'd do what I needed to do, too... But, since I really CAN'T know what he knows, I wouldn't pull his fingernails out..

excon

speechlesstx · May 5, 2011, 01:31 PM

Wait, we were pulling fingernails out? I thought we were just pouring water on 'em, keeping them awake and blasting the Black-Eyed Peas at 'em.

tomder55 · May 5, 2011, 02:45 PM

The fact is that even when they tried the withhold information and did the so called 'tell them what they want to hear' there were obviously contradictions in their responses that the intel folks pieced together. Did they spill the beans ? Maybe and maybe not .But the guy in the next cell knew what was happening and his responses were tailored appropriately .

Look ;even Leon Paneta admitted that the interrogation methods worked. Would we have gotten the key intel from other methods ? Possibly.

The fact is that our intel on AQ was seriously wanting in 2002 and a crash course had to be taken . No one believed time was on our side.

Immediately after 9-11 there were anthrax attacks and no one knew what AQ capabilites were.

It's easy to Monday morning quarterback a decade later. But at the time the ticking time bomb seemed very real .

excon · May 5, 2011, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by tomder55

Look ;even Leon Paneta admitted that the interrogation methods worked.

Hello tom:

Nobody here says it doesn't work. But, if safety is our only issue, I wonder why we don't use it on our domestic criminals.. It'll make us safer, won't it? Why don't we search everybody's houses? That'll make us safer too, won't it? Why don't we build concentration camps and put people there who pose a threat, and knock 'em off if they cause trouble? Why don't we do these things if safety if the only consideration?

I'll tell you why. Because our humanity IS a consideration... And, so's the Constitution.

excon

tomder55 · May 5, 2011, 06:18 PM

You still refuse to make the distinction between Americans who have Constitutional protections and enemy combatants in war. Under no provisions I'm aware of are they entitled to the same safeguards as US citizens.

You can call it a concentration camp all you want. But Gitmo by anyone's standard is one of the most humane prison on the planet. My guess is that it beats most US prisons in that regard.

paraclete · May 5, 2011, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by tomder55

You can call it a concentration camp all you want. But Gitmo by anyone's standard is one of the most humane prison on the planet. My guess is that it beats most US prisons in that regard.

No pictures I have seen of gitmo supports your claim that it is the one of the most humane on the planet. To me it looks like a place you would pen dogs and even then it wouldn't be considered humane. Should it be better than other US prisons then a revue of how you treat your own is long overdue
http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgu...ed=0CCcQ9QEwAA

excon · May 5, 2011, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by tomder55

But Gitmo by anyone's standard is one of the most humane prison on the planet. My guess is that it beats most US prisons in that regard.

Hello again, tom:

Keeping someone forever, never giving them a trial or a hope of getting out, isn't humane no matter how good the food is.

excon

excon · May 5, 2011, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by tomder55

you still refuse to make the distinction between Americans who have Constitutional protections and enemy combatants in war. Under no provisions I'm aware of are they entitled to the same safeguards as US citizens.

Hello again, tom:

The Constitutional distinction is a declaration of war. You can't have the benefits of a war without declaring it..

Therefore, there is no such distinction in the law as "enemy combatants. Without a declaration of war, there are only criminals. That would endow them with Constitutional rights. These criminals committed their crime in NY City. Seems to me, they should be tried in NY City.

Bush had a chance to follow the Constitution. He could have asked for a declaration of war. He would have gotten it. He chose not to. There's repercussions for doing that.

excon