[Festoids]

Catsmine, allow me to clarify my point.

You have two dogs of breed standard. The offspring they produce are a mixed collection of some that don't meet breed standards and some that meet breed standards. If the breeder continues to breed these dogs then he/she is in violation of the standards set forth. Whether the breed alters the inferior offspring or not, the trait for inferiority survives still in the offspring that have met breed standard.

[shazamataz]

This is where it gets tricky.

Even reputable breeders can breed dogs with faults, but reputable breeders rarely breed dogs with major problems.

Reputable breeders will do things like hip scores on their dogs before breeding so the puppies have a very high chance of having good hips.
Backyard breeders don't do the tests for hips so could end up with a whole litter of dogs with hip displaysia.

Reputable breeders can still end up with faults in their dogs but they are minor... things like the lay of shoulder not being quite up to standard, or depth of chest not enough, these faults do not hurt the dog in any way and does not affect the dogs quality of life.

Backyard breeders rarely even know what the breed standard is so could have a multitude of problems as above (shoulder and chest) plus other problems which can cause problems later in life such as short muzzels, extreme cow hocks, weak pasterns, all of which can affect the dogs quality of life as it grows.

[Alty]

Festoid, I really don't want to write another essay, going through your post point by point.

No, I've never seen a dog euthanized on it's first day in the shelter. I was trying to be fair by conceding that sick dogs are euthanized, and to be fair to the shelter, I wasn't there every day, and I not longer volunteer at the shelter. I'm too much of a soft heart to go there, see the dogs, walk the dogs, play with the dogs, bond with the dogs, and leave without them.

Yes, I have seen extremely sick dogs euthanized at the shelter, that's true, but everything is done to attempt to help the dog before that decision is made. If it's not possible to help, no alternative, than the dog is put to sleep. A sick dog is not adopted out, because a sick dog is... well... a sick dog. So, are dogs euthanized on their first day at the shelter? Possibly.

No animals were killed to keep Boots in the shelter. I posted a link for our local shelter, please read it. No healthy adoptable animal is euthanized. Ever! If there isn't room in the shelter, dogs are fostered out. The shelter has many wonderful volunteers willing to foster dogs for years (if need be) until they are adopted. Boots was euthanized because he was old, sick, and went senile. He was not adoptable.

Obviously you're in the US, and nothing against the US, but it seems that the shelters there are a disaster, at least according to the American people posting here. So to be fair, maybe the shelter system in the US is flawed. That's not the case in Canada. No disrespect intended to my US friends on this site, but the only people posting about terrible shelters, terrible euthanizing practices, etc. etc. are the people in the US.

Shazzy covered breeding practices and what legit breeders do, so I won't repeat any of that.

To address your "human = to dog" speech. No, humans and animals aren't equal, but, an animal in the care of a human, deserves the care of any living thing.

Having an animal in your life is a choice. If you choose to do so, you are responsible for making sure that the animal in your care is cared for. Part of that care means not putting the animal at risk. Backyard breeders as a group put every dog at risk, not only because they breed without testing, but because the majority of them don't know what they're doing when it comes to breeding. They put the female and the puppies at risk, and each litter puts other dogs at risk. To be a responsible owner means being responsible for every animal that comes into your home. Responsible owners don't breed. They leave that to the pros.

[shazamataz]

Having an animal in your life is a choice. If you choose to do so, you are responsible for making sure that the animal in your care is cared for. Part of that care means not putting the animal at risk. Backyard breeders as a group put every dog at risk, not only because they breed without testing, but because the majority of them don't know what they're doing when it comes to breeding. They put the female and the puppies at risk, and each litter puts other dogs at risk. To be a responsible owner means being responsible for every animal that comes into your home. Responsible owners don't breed. They leave that to the pros.

Yes, the amount of "my dog had puppies 2 days ago now 3 of them are dead what do I do?" questions on here is frightening.

Or my favourite "my dogs is having puppies right now what do I do?"

[Sariss]

Most of your comment Alty was correct, but I live in Canada. :P

[Alty]

Most of your comment Alty was correct, but I live in Canada. :P

LOL! Yes, but I've never seen you complain about shelters. :)

[Sariss]

LOL! Yes, but I've never seen you complain about shelters. :)

True, I didn't complain per say, but I did tell my story about having to decide who gets to live and who gets to die out of a group of healthy young animals. But even at the capacity we were euthanising, we always did it humanely. Especially if I was the one euthanising, then at least I know it was going as nicely as possible.

[Alty]

Yes, the amount of "my dog had puppies 2 days ago now 3 of them are dead what do I do?" questions on here is frightening.

Or my favourite "my dogs is having puppies right now what do I do?"

Or the "I put my dogs together and they won't mate, what's wrong?", or "my dog had puppies and they won't eat, what do I do?"

A real breeder doesn't leave things to chance. They know what they need to do in any given situation, and if the puppies are in trouble, they rush to the vet, not the computer.

[Kitkat22]

The shelters here are great. We got our cats from the Shelter. They don't put them to sleep the
First day or the first week, unless they are sick. We have two cats who were both fixed and declawed with microchip in the ears. They had one dog Sam, who hangs out at the desk. He's been there a long time.

My daughters' Friend and her fiancé have a shelter about twenty
Miles from here and it is wonderful.

Julie loves those animals as much as anybody could and each time someone takes one home she nearly crys.

Alty there are some horror stories from places in the states that make me sick.. but there are some great ones.

[Alty]

True, I didn't complain per say, but I did tell my story about having to decide who gets to live and who gets to die out of a group of healthy young animals. But even at the capacity we were euthanising, we always did it humanely. Especially if I was the one euthanising, then at least I know it was going as nicely as possible.

I've never had to choose amongst animals that were healthy and adoptable. The animals euthanized in the shelter where I am are only killed if there's no chance of adoption. That's not judged by the length of time they've been there, but by there overall health and disposition. They do their best to rehabilitate animals that have issues, but it doesn't always work.

My two rescue bunnies were problem kids. Both were scheduled for euthanasia. Thumper had been in and out of the shelter and even lived on the streets for a while. He had issues with biting, lunging, and was considered unfit to live with other rabbits, or humans. They had tried everything during his last stint at the shelter. After 4 months of him not improving, they had to make the decision. I got there the day before he was set to go in. They all know me there, and they know about my work with rabbits, so when I said I'd take him, they knew that no matter what, he wasn't coming back, he'd live with me until the end.

It took a lot of work, a lot of training, but he's now a wonderful pet. He gets along with my other 3 rabbits, doesn't bite, and is just a joy.

Kilala was the same. She came from a rabbit house. Irresponsible owner who let her rabbits breed at will, live in filth, no care. Over 200 rabbits seized from her property. Over 30 had to be put to sleep within days, too feral, diseased, no way to help them. Kilala was a wild child when we adopted her. Days before we got her she had gone through a spay abort. She was lunging at everyone that came close to her, destroying her cage. She was considered unadoptable. She still hates being picked up, but other than that, she's a delight. She loves to sit in my lap and get cuddles. She gets along with my other rabbits, and she's a joy.

The only reason I was allowed to adopt these two rabbits that were considered unadoptable is because of my history with the shelter and with rabbits. They knew theses bunnies would have a good life, even if I couldn't rehabilitate them, they would have a forever home and a good life.

This isn't the case with most of the animals considered unadoptable, and the staff at the shelter don't make the decision to kill at a whim. A lot of consideration goes into it, and an animal that can be adopted will not be euthanized.

[Sariss]

I wish where I worked was like that, but we were a municipal animal shelter who had more pets coming in than we could house. During the summer we would literally be bringing in 20 dogs a day and god knows how many cats.
Foster homes didn't really exist as most people were more interested in fostering for animal rescues or other no-kill shelters nearby. No one really thought of the high kill places like municipal shelters.
We would get purebreds or close mixes to rescues as much as we could and we would have rescues come in weekly to 'save' a few and bring them to their shelter. But all of that was still not enough to curb the fact that we had too many animals, and not enough spacce.

It was terrible, and it's why I'll never work in a shelter again.

[Alty]

Sariss, did you check out the link to my local shelter?

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source...C-3tFw&cad=rja

I have to say that I'm proud to have such a wonderful shelter in our area. They really do a wonderful job.

[Alty]

Oh darn, they have a beagle in the shelter right now. Almost the same age as Chewy.

Stop me from going down there!

[shazamataz]

No way Alty, I'm not stopping you :D

FYI, the house across the road is going to be for sale soon... just a thought.

[Alty]

No way Alty, I'm not stopping you :D

FYI, the house across the road is going to be for sale soon... just a thought.

FYI, R's moms house is up for sale and the price was just reduced by $30,000, huge yard, 5 minute drive from my place.

Just a thought, now that we've officially hijacked this thread. ;)

[shazamataz]

I know, V told me about it, he was actually considering it but it's about twice what our place is worth.

Now if you came here you could have a lot of spare money (crap house) but spare money :D

[Alty]

I know, V told me about it, he was actually considering it but it's about twice what our place is worth.

Now if you came here you could have a lot of spare money (crap house) but spare money :D

LOL! But, half that house is mine. If I won the lottery, I'd buy it for you. So just pick the lucky numbers and it's a done deal. I'd buy an acreage (around 50 acres should do), than we can open a shelter together.

Also, our dogs and bunnies could play together, along with the kids. This house has a gigantic backyard, great for pets, close to the mall and other amenities. Of course if I won the lottery I'd just build you a house on my 50 acres. :)

Just do it!

See how I incorporated shelters into the discussion. Not hijacking after all. Oh... wait... the original post was about breeding.

Um, great breeders here, also a lot of dog shows for Cyrus.

There. Done. :)

[shazamataz]

That would be my dream Alty.
If I won the lottery I'd either ship all you guys over here or move to Canada. Either way is fine with me.

We have a big show coming up in 2 weeks! I'm stressing about it already!
Every year we have the Royal Shows all over Aus. I don't really know how to describe them but think of a 3 day carnival with rides and games but also animal shows, livestock, cats, dogs, horses, everything and we fly in international judges.

And to throw in breeding... there are some dogs flying down here that were bred by the same lady that bred Cyrus. Competition from his own kennel :rolleyes:

[Sariss]

Yeah.. it seems Edmonton's Animal Services unit is able to hold animals in their facility until they can send them out to an adoption agency like the Humane society or the other rescues in and around the city. Sadly where I was working it wasn't that easy. :(

[Aurora_Bell]

Our SPCA holds dogs until they get placed, but the dogs get fostered out more often than not.

I have to say after reading this thread and another one here, Canada must have the best shelters going. I said it in a another thread, but thank Gawd our shelters aren't like the ones spoken of here.