[Wondergirl]

So, then everyone is saved. Go ahead and party and do what you want. You don't have to obey God to be saved.

That was a leap in logic!

No, you don't have to obey God in order to be saved. Obedience isn't to get saved; obedience is our thank-you to God for His grace and mercy in saving us.

[De Maria]

That was a leap in logic!

No, you don't have to obey God in order to be to be saved. Obedience isn't to get saved; obedience is our thank-you to God for His grace and mercy in saving us.

But that isn't what Scripture says. Scripture says:
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

He doesn't say that we must obey after we are saved. That says we must obey to be saved. Besides, what does that do with everyone who doesn't ever obey? Is there salvation revoked?

Look at another verse:
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 (King James Version)

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

[Wondergirl]

Gal. 2:21, "... if justification were through the law [i.e. obedience], then Christ died to no purpose."

Rom. 5: "1 "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand."Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand."16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ."16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ."18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men."

[Wondergirl]

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Please read the entire chapter as context. The grace and the sacrifice on the cross came first, and the obedience follows. Faith causes and inspires obedience, and not the other way around.

what does that do with everyone who doesn't ever obey? Is there salvation revoked?

The Bible says point-blank that faith without works is dead. There is no faith if there are no works.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 (King James Version)
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Now you are cherry picking. It doesn't say obey first, then you get salvation. It's telling us to follow ("obey") the Gospel, the word of the Lord.

[De Maria]

Gal. 2:21, "... if justification were through the law [i.e. obedience], then Christ died to no purpose."

That's not what that means. St. Paul wrote Galatians. And you need to read his stuff carefully. He is the only author of Scripture about which Scripture says:
2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood,.

But we can see other things which he wrote which put his words in perspective:
Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Only those who keep the law are justified. That means obedience. But we can look elsewhere and see that St. Paul was keen on obedience:
Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Rom. 5: "1 "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand."

That's Catholic teaching. Without faith, we can't please God. It is only with faith that we can please Him and can seek to be justified:
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Rom. 5: "16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ."

That's talking about Baptism:
1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

And the gift which we receive when we are Baptized:
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Rom. 5: "18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men."

That speaks of Jesus death on the Cross and the word "all" is not meant to be taken as an absolute. Because although all men could have been saved by even one drop of blood which Jesus shed. Not all men accepted that sacrifice and many are therefore lost.

[De Maria]

Please read the entire chapter as context. The grace and the sacrifice on the cross came first, and the obedience follows. Faith causes and inspires obedience, and not the other way around.

I have read it and I have compared it to other Scriptures and my reading is perfectly in line with them all.

The Bible says point-blank that faith without works is dead. There is no faith if there are no works.

But you didn't go far enough. If there are no works, there is no faith and without faith there is no justification. Therefore by works a man is justified and not by faith only.

Now you are cherry picking. It doesn't say obey first, then you get salvation. It's telling us to follow ("obey") the Gospel, the word of the Lord.

Or what? Answer this question PLEASE. What happens if we DO NOT obey the Gospel?
1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

[Athos]

"Could Jesus have sinned"? This is one of those questions that takes people around and around in circles.

If it were possible for Jesus to have sinned, you simply can't get around the logical conclusion that therefore God could have sinned. That is, if you hold that Jesus is God.

Saying that Jesus temporarily "discarded" his divinity to allow the possibility of sinfulness is the worst kind of deus ex machina argument. It is an argument created out of whole cloth to support a false proposition.

If Jesus could sin, then God could sin. What does that mean? God sinning? It just doesn't make sense.

[Wondergirl]

If Jesus could sin, then God could sin. What does that mean? God sinning? It just doesn't make sense.

But Jesus was also fully human along with being God, and turned out to be the PERFECT Adam (vs. that other one).

A god who couldn't sin and then gets himself killed by humans sounds like a real wimp and accomplishes nothing, is nothing we can (or want to) relate to. His death is just a vainglorious and glitzy activity, so much celestial flash and dash. "Oh, yeah, He's God. No big deal."

[Athos]

A god who couldn't sin and then gets himself killed by humans sounds like a real wimp and accomplishes nothing, is nothing we can (or want to) relate to. His death is just a vainglorious and glitzy activity, so much celestial flash and dash. "Oh, yeah, He's God. No big deal."

I have no idea why you feel this way. Apparently, you feel that being capable of sin is essential to living a "real" human life. That may be true for humans, but God is a different matter. Goodness, or sinlessness, is not simply an aspect of God - it IS God. Maybe if you saw sin as evil, and not just a fall from grace that is easily atoned for, you might get a different take. God can not be good AND evil at the same time. It's a contradiction in terms.

The nature of Jesus is a very complex matter that the Church has been grappling with since the earliest days when the notion of his divinity first arose. Yes, he was human, but he was never not divine. We don't have any examples other than Jesus to think about how this works. So the question, maybe, at best, is unanswerable.

I admit to approaching this from a philosophical point of view, but De Maria has approached it from a Biblical point of view and I think his scriptural references are definitive.

Btw, we know that Jesus was conceived without sin unlike any other human being that ever lived, (putting aside the question of Mary for the moment - I don't want to divert this thread) so maybe that's an indication of how to approach his human nature.

[edit - later thought - Adam was made in the "image" of God. Adam sinned. Does that mean God could have sinned? Just a thought].

[Wondergirl]

I have no idea why you feel this way. Apparently, you feel that being capable of sin is essential to living a "real" human life.

Why then is Jesus described as being fully human too? Apparently, it makes not one lick of difference (to you) that He was. He was really fully God and the other is just window dressing.

[Wondergirl]

God can not be good AND evil at the same time. It's a contradiction in terms.

I didn't say God was good and evil at the same time.

[edit - later thought - Adam was made in the "image" of God. Adam sinned. Does that mean God could have sinned? Just a thought].

That's exactly my (our) point -- Jesus was also fully human and COULD HAVE sinned, but didn't -- and therein lies the glory of it all.

Second Adam

1 Cor. 15:22, 45

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. . . . 45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Romans 5:12-21 KJV

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 5:12-21 NIV

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the One to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. 20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

http://www.presenttruthmag.com/verse...econd-adam.htm

[Wondergirl]

The nature of Jesus is a very complex matter that the Church has been grappling with since the earliest days when the notion of his divinity first arose. Yes, he was human, but he was never not divine. We don't have any examples other than Jesus to think about how this works. So the question, maybe, at best, is unanswerable.

[paragraph removed]

Btw, we know that Jesus was conceived without sin unlike any other human being that ever lived, (putting aside the question of Mary for the moment - I don't want to divert this thread) so maybe that's an indication of how to approach his human nature.

Yeah, and the inability of us humans to wrap our finite minds around Jesus' dual nature is why it's called a mystery.

[Athos]

Apparently, it makes not one lick of difference (to you) that He was. He was really fully God and the other is just window dressing.

I don't think there's any call for you to be nasty about this question. Better to BE Christ-like than to KNOW everything about his essence which is certainly unknowable.

[Wondergirl]

Again, I'll post something Jakester said early in this thread (bolding is mine) --

"... was it possible for Jesus to sin? I think that since the opportunities to sin for Jesus were presented through the trials of Satan, the 'possibility' for Jesus to sin must have been a reality...if not, why would the temptations of Satan to Christ have even occurred? I think it was possible for Jesus to sin but if he had sinned, the rest of God's story would not be what it is... he would have told a different story.

Another question may be raised at this point. If Jesus were not capable of sin and yet the possibility of Jesus sinning were a reality, what was the point of the trials Jesus faced? Hebrews makes the case that in order for Jesus to be a qualified high priest, he needed to be able to empathize with us in our struggles against sin. He can be a more effective High Priest because he has come face to face with temptation, felt the stings of it (consider how Jesus was hungry and weak while Satan came to tempt him), and yet was able to still do the right thing and obey God.

And I might add that the high priestly quality of Jesus is what sets him apart from all other "Gods." No other religion can boast of a God who was so thoroughly intimate with the human experience that he became human, faced the temptations of sin, knew sorrow and pain, and in the end chose to be merciful to those who killed him."

[Athos]

I didn't say God was good and evil at the same time.

That's exactly my (our) point -- Jesus was also fully human and COULD HAVE sinned, but didn't -- and therein lies the glory of it all.

Second Adam

1 Cor. 15:22, 45

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. . . . 45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Romans 5:12-21 KJV

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 5:12-21 NIV

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the One to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. 20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Second Adam

My eyes glaze over when I see oodles of Bible verses. Everybody seems to find a Bible verse no matter their position. Better to save them for De Maria.

[Athos]

"...was it possible for Jesus to sin? I think that since the opportunities to sin for Jesus were presented through the trials of Satan, the 'possibility' for Jesus to sin must have been a reality...if not, why would the temptations of Satan to Christ have even occurred? I think it was possible for Jesus to sin but if he had sinned, the rest of God's story would not be what it is...he would have told a different story.[/B]"

This was answered, satisfactorily in my opinion, by De Maria.

[Wondergirl]

I don't think there's any call for you to be nasty about this question. Better to BE Christ-like than to KNOW everything about his essence which is certainly unknowable.

Huh? I was debating, not being nasty.

And I did post that Jesus' dual nature is a mystery (to ALL of us). How that could be done without losing His "godness" and yet while retaining His humanness is something none of us can understand. But He did it!

[Wondergirl]

This was answered, satisfactorily in my opinion, by De Maria.

I disagree. His explanation didn't satisfy.

[Wondergirl]

My eyes glaze over when I see oodles of Bible verses. Everybody seems to find a Bible verse no matter their position. Better to save them for De Maria.

Piffle! De Maria has no corner on Bible verse quoting, plus I bolded the parts that are especially important. I can isolate them further for you, if that would help.

[Athos]

Piffle! De Maria has no corner on Bible verse quoting, plus I bolded the parts that are especially important. I can isolate them further for you, if that would help.

Piffle yourself.

Yeah, that's all I need - for you to start bolding verses. If you do, I'll start quoting the Bhagavad-Gita.

I see you had your raw meat this morning. And you used to be so nice going around baking cupcakes for everybody.

Want to dance?