[KBC]

Yeah lets let them sink .That should help "win hearts and minds ".

Since when was this a popularity contest?

If we are to stay our course,we 'need' Pakistan for strategic military locations,not to save the world by cutting off our proverbial noses.

[paraclete]

Flood away,perhaps then the people who wanted this 'freedom' a generation ago will actually DO something with the freedoms they have gained..or fail as a whole.

Let's just have a little rave shall we? You seem to think the people of Pakistan aren't free, there is a difference between freedom and economically depressed. Pakistan hasn't enjoyed the growth and investment many other asian countries have enjoyed so a little difficult to do something with their freedom. The disruption and insurgency in Pakistan exists because america is interferring in the region, you can't show someone how to have a successful insurgency as was done in Afghanistan using Pakistan for staging and then say forget what you learned

[tomder55]

The disruption and insurgency in Pakistan exists because america is interferring in the region, you can't show someone how to have a successful insurgency as was done in Afghanistan using Pakistan for staging and then say forget what you learned

Now there is a willful distortion of history. The country has been unstable since day one when it was carved out of the British colonial Hindu Kush and the greater sub-Continent . The war of separation with India had millions of casualties. But somehow it is US involvement that is the source of all turmoil in the world .

[KBC]

Aren't free?Where do you draw that conclusion from?

I KNOW they are free, but free from what is the question.

Free from British rule.Yes.

Free from American rule,Yes.

Free to improve their own country and instead put more and more into a military instead of trying to make something with what they have(and get from the US and other countries).Yes, they are free to do whatever they want to.

My simple response is exactly what I have been saying all this thread long.. if they can't do with what they have had,for the last 50-60 years,maybe they need to be moved to a different direction.One with NO ONE to guide them.Our best attempts have proven what?Military build-up and nuclear arms,long range missiles to attack neighboring India... and now we are going to offer MORE AID because they decided to make a military stance instead of fixing what they need to?

BAh, The USA is being(again) a soft hearted,pay out too much to corruption, fight those we are paying, stupidly strategically needy,military laced byproduct of the cold war.

In the world of the addict, we teach tough love,pulling out of enabling situations which are toxic for those who participate in them.This is no different.

If this is so important to the 'region',let those in that region do what they can do, the USA needs to pull out of all foreign interests like this and start being more home bound.We can't keep enabling foreign countries to continue their reigns of corruption and misdeeds,then 'forgive them' for a strategic military location, that is just falling prey to the enabling generals and military interests... it means NOTHING TO THE AVERAGE AMERICAN if Pakistan falls.

It might to a country close enough to them who might get nuked... let them worry about this.

[paraclete]

Now there is a willful distortion of history. The country has been unstable since day one when it was carved out of the British colonial Hindu Kush and the greater sub-Continent . The war of separation with India had millions of casualties. But somehow it is US involvement that is the source of all turmoil in the world .

US involvement is the source of the instability of that region at this time. Would there be tension with India, I have no doubt unresolved issues would continue but this doesn't have anything to do with the insurgency in the tribal regions, to suggest otherwise is a willfull distortion of history. The US is not the source of all the turmoil in the world but it has played the leading role in destabalising the middle east and a continuing role in the destabalisation of Afghanistan and Pakistan. The US appears to be paranoid about Iran and nuclear energy, yet both Pakistan and India have behaved responsibly since gaining nuclear capability

[paraclete]

it means NOTHING TO THE AVERAGE AMERICAN if Pakistan falls.

Right, and yet we have all the rhetoric about how important it is. Just so they will fight your war for you and transit your supplies.

[tomder55]

Off subject , Julia the Red appears to be a bit of a black widow.

KRudd is complaining that she assassinated him... and now she wants to off the Queen .(will KRudd's lack of support be the determining factor in the swing states like Queesland ?)

Now she says the Aussies are going to help the Pakis.Question . Will Aussia aid also facilitate the corruption ?

[paraclete]

off subject , Julia the Red appears to be a bit of a black widow.

KRudd is complaining that she assassinated him ....and now she wants to off the Queen .(will KRudd's lack of support be the determining factor in the swing states like Queesland ?)

Now she says the Aussies are going to help the Pakis.Question . Will Aussia aid also facilitate the corruption ?

Our aid goes through recognised agencies, who knows, everything is corrupt in Pakistan. Our aid so far is about half of what the US has given, so much for alliances eh?

The republic is a long term question, about 50/50 at the moment, the little red fox is just putting it back on the agenda as a distraction, a backhanded "vote for me is a vote for the republic". The time to change is when the Queen pushes off and I expect rapid change then. In reality it would make no difference as I don't see a US style presidency. Krudd is doing what Krudd does best, more Krudd. He is an example of what we could expect from a US Style presidency. Krudd isn't a factor anymore, he is yesterday's man, he didn't have the guts to face a vote, so now he thinks what happened to him was a coup. Labor has trotted out all of yesterday's men hoping to get a win but in reality it is a circus. Queensland isn't a swing state, it's gone and so has New South Wales. We have had enough of Labor and it's faceless men, they have destroyed New South Wales

[tomder55]

We have had enough of Labor and it's faceless men

Here's hoping ! But if Julia the Red retains the majority won't KRudd become the Aussie Evita ,in some position like Foreign Minister ?

[paraclete]

Here's hopin ! But if Julia the Red retains the majority won't KRudd become the Aussie Evita ,in some position like Foreign Minister ?

Maybe, but it's not the same sort of alliance. Krudd didn't stand aside for Julia, he was knifed in what could be described as the night of the long knives. Krudd is a grandstander, you couldn't afford to have him in the limelight and he would be plotting in the eaves. Labor is littered with former leaders, sort of like your former presidential candidates. We have a long history of appointing former leaders to ambassadorial positions and I could see Krudd as ambassador to the UN or China. But first things first, he has to retain his seat. If his electorate is as p*ssed off as his parliamentary comrades and they might be, he might get the axe, like his former adversary little John.

Pundits are saying Labor has 36% of the primary vote and Coalition 43%. History says Labor is unelectable below 40% and the Coalition needs better than 43% to be elected. Strange thing two party preferred voting when the undecided and the minor parties decide the outcome

[smoothy]

No doubt a pretty big mess. I have no sympathy for the people in the tribal areas, too many support the radicals... but I do have friends from and in other parts of Pakistan. Except for a few loons... they are a generally friendly and hospitable bunch at the personal level. Beyond the organised corruption that's rampant that is. I had business owners I know personally in both Islamabad and Karachi that were going to pay all my expenses there and put me up if I visited them, this was all before 9/11 however. And it became unsafe for a very German looking man to be there.

[paraclete]

And it became unsafe for a very German looking man to be there.

I cannot understand why it is unsafe for a very german looking man, just cover your hair. I was there during the crisis they had at Bhutto's death and you couldn't get anyone more obviously European than me and there was no problem, even when I was standing around the airport for hours. The Pakistani's are very hospitable and expect to pay for everything so enjoy your trip

[smoothy]

I cannot understand why it is unsafe for a very german looking man, just cover your hair. I was there during the crisis they had at Bhutto's death and you couldn't get anyone more obviously European than me and there was no problem, even when I was standing around the airport for hours. The Pakistani's are very hospitable and expect to pay for everything so enjoy your trip

Well, this is around the Time Oil company people and other travelers were getting kidnapped and executed. It was right at the beginning of the time it was unsafe for anyone that clearly didn't look Pakistani. THis was way before Bhutto was assassinated.

In fact there were travel advisories as a result for that. I however haven't heard from any of them in the interviening years, and even if I do.. things gota settle down a LOT before I'll venture into that area of the world. Lets just say I've already had my fill of that type of excitement for a lifetime.