[smoothy]

A terrorist Memorial will revitalize it how? Home base for terrorists to plan more future "revitalizations" projects. Like at the site of the Empire State building? Or the CHrysler Building? How about muslim revitalization of Grand Central Station. THey think THOSE are prime places for a Mosque too for all the Muslim residents of Central Park.

[Wondergirl]

Should it matter whether I like it or not? No.

Reminds me of my neighborhood that used to be a quiet street lined with trees and solid, two- or three-bedroom homes on large lots. Then the teardowns began back about ten years ago. McMansions were built, and occupants ended up with postage-stamp-sized yards. The beautiful park-like corner lot next door to me was divided into three lots. (Special permission had to be gotten from the village.) The neighbor children now beg to play in my huge back yard, since they have none. (I have to say no for liability's sake.) I'm so glad I didn't sell the builder a twenty-five foot piece of my property; otherwise, the neighbors' driveway basketball games would be right outside my bedroom window.

Do I like this? No. But the builder followed all the rules and had a right to subdivide and build like he did.

[tomder55]

So? This will revitalize a broken, even derelict, area of Manhattan

Clearly you have not visited lower Manhattan recently . Despite the hammering that Wall Street has taken in recent years the area is hardly what you would call derelict.Actually the WTC site had become a tourist destination . It is a short walk from there to many other places in the area a tourist might want to see. You can easily spend a long weekend just in the lower Manhattan area and still not see all there is to offer .

[Wondergirl]

A terrorist Memorial will revitalize it how? Home base for terrorists to plan more future "revitalizations" projects. Like at the site of the Empire State building? or the CHrysler Building?

I'm sure you will be welcomed warmly when you go there to visit and check up on them. Be sure to ask for some baklava with your coffee.

[Wondergirl]

clearly you have not visited lower Manhattan recently . Despite the hammering that Wall Street has taken in recent years the area is hardly what you would call derelict.Actually the WTC site had become a tourist destination . It is a short walk from there to many other places in the area a tourist might want to see. You can easily spend a long weekend just in the lower Manhattan area and still not see all there is to offer .

So all the buildings damaged on 9/11 have been repaired and are inhabited now? Oh, and what has been built on Ground Zero during the past nine years?

[smoothy]

I'm sure you will be welcomed warmly when you go there to visit and check up on them. Be sure to ask for some baklava with your coffee.

Personally... I hate New York City. In more ways than one. I hate anyplace that requires a drive of several miles to see more than a square yard of grass. And particularly anyplace where there is more concrete than trees, flowers and grass.

It isn't natural for people to cram together that tightly.

[Synnen]

And yet---no one has answered the question about what "community" is using the 6 Christian churches in this "commercial and not residential" area around Ground Zero.

Community is NOT just where people LIVE, you know.

What this comes down to is that I'm not willing to give up freedoms for safety. None of you should be willing to do so, either.

[tomder55]

So all the buildings damaged on 9/11 have been repaired and are inhabited now? Oh, and what has been built on Ground Zero during the past nine years?

You are talking about the WTC's and a couple adjacent buildings .But you called the couple of blocks a "derelict area" .

There are hundreds of construction jobs ongoing at any given time in Manhattan ,even in this economic climate. The area around the WTC is largely back in business. The Liberty Tower and memorial are finally under construction . I fail to see where building the mosque would have any positive or negative impact on the economy of lower Manhattan.

Now if you really wanted a positive economic impact on the area ;cut Capital Gains taxes to a level the rest of the Western world enjoys. Only Japan is more punitive on businesses.

[smoothy]

And yet---no one has answered the question about what "community" is using the 6 Christian churches in this "commercial and not residential" area around Ground Zero.

Community is NOT just where people LIVE, you know.

What this comes down to is that I'm not willing to give up freedoms for safety. None of you should be willing to do so, either.

And as I have asked ExCon... exactly where in the constitution are Muslims alone granted the right to do anything they want, anywhere they want without being subject to anything to stop them?

There is no constitutional right to build anything you want, anywhere you want. Otherwise every Zoning, local ordanence, Homeowners association and any law or regualtion attached to structures in the country would have been declared unconstitutional... because any and every one can prevent you from exercising this "Right" that apparently only the Muslims have. Since nobody else has it.

I can't build a garage in my back yard without zoneing approval... town approval. Approval of all my surrounding neighers (neighborhood review), no homeowners associtation where I live, not to mention permits, etc... if it was my RIGHT to do what I want on my property. And if it totals more than 24% coverage of my property... I'm sh*t out of luck because it WILL be refused. And Constitutional rights can't be trumped by Federal much less state or local ordinaces.

[Wondergirl]

And as I have asked ExCon... exactly where in the constitution are Muslims alone granted the right to do anything they want, anywhere they want without being subject to anything to stop them?

They aren't. They are following the same rules Christians must follow.

There is no constitutional right to build anything you want, anywhere you want. Otherwise every Zoning, local ordanence, Homeowners association and any law or regualtion attached to structures in the country would have been declared unconstitutional... because any and every one can prevent you from exercising this "Right" that apparently only the Muslims have. Since nobody else has it.

Huh? What about my Italian neighbors in their McMansion that now overshadows my one-story house and blocks my view of the setting sun? This was mostly a German and Polish block before they moved on to it. How dare they! And they can look down into my house from their second story windows. Now I got to pull down my shades. Geez.

[tomder55]

and your remedy before they were built was to petition the town ,ask for zoning changes ,petition with your neighbors to prevent it ,threaten to boycott any company involved in the construction (libs utilize boycotts often as I recall).. any number of steps that would've been a legitimate expression of your 1st amendment rights.
Exercising your rights would not mean by extension that you were denying the owner their rights.

The argument that Excon is making on this op is what Howard Dean correctly called "absolutism" .

[Wondergirl]

and your remedy before they were built was to petition the town ,ask for zoning changes ,petition with your neighbors to prevent it ,threaten to boycott any company involved in the construction (libs utilize boycotts often as I recall) ..any number of steps that would've been a legitimate expression of your 1st amendment rights.
Exercising your rights would not mean by extention that you were denying the owner their rights.

They won; our neighborhood lost.

[smoothy]

They aren't. They are following the same rules Christians must follow.

Huh? What about my Italian neighbors in their McMansion that now overshadows my one-story house and blocks my view of the setting sun? This was mostly a German and Polish block before they moved on to it. How dare they! And they can look down into my house from their second story windows. Now I gotta pull down my shades. Geez.

Are you even really a christian... seriously. YOu know darn well Christians have to follow the same laws every other American has to follow... Churches included, but you are arguing Muslims are somehow exempt and have special rights the rest of us don't have.

Hey... about the McMansion thing... thank your local elected officials. They allowed it to be buiilt They didn't have to. They could have legally rejected the permits... and if it was built without permits can have it torn down at the owners expense. Happens around here every couple years.

I can understand your point on the McMansion. We have codes and laws that apply to what can be built and how big in existing neighborhoods. They are there to Prevent the very thing you describe.

I suggest getting together with your neighbors and making it an issue long before the next election in your area. It can be stopped.

[smoothy]

They won; our neighborhood lost.

Again.. a grass roots campaign before the next election can put an end to that in the future if you can get enough people on board. Under the table bribes won't help an official that out of his job get anything done.

Those are elected positions in most places... actions will effect elections. No politition is ENTITLED to a job for life. Contrary to what many believe.

[Wondergirl]

Are you even really a christian... seriously. YOu know darn well Christians have to follow the same laws every other American has to follow... Churches included, but you are arguing Muslims are somehow exempt and have special rights the rest of us don't have.

Where did I argue Muslims are exempt?

I suggest getting together with your neighbors and making it an issue long before the next election in your area. It can be stopped.

The slowdown in the economy stopped the teardowns, and the McMansion phase seems to be over now that conspicuous consumption isn't a priority.

[tomder55]

Sorry about that WG . I had a different experience after a multi-year battle. I ultimately won by becoming politically active and help replace the board at the polls .


Howard Dean is spending his day defending his comments from irate former relativists from his side.
Here are his latest comments :

Here is my case.

First, no one who understands the American Constitution can reasonably doubt the right of the builders to build.
Secondly, the building site is very close to the site of a violent tragedy that seared the soul of every American including Muslim Americans.
Thirdly, the builders of the proposed Islamic Center say they want to help heal the nation and there is a preponderance of evidence that that is true, based not least on the fact that the last administration viewed the leadership of this group as a. pro American bridge to the Muslim world.

Fourth, there are many Americans, about 65 or 70 percent, including many family members of the victims, who have very strong emotional resistance to building on this site. Some of them may have other feelings such as hate, fear, etc. but the vast majority of these people are not right wing hate mongers.

My argument is simple. This Center may be intended as a bridge or a healing gesture but it will not be perceived that way unless a dialogue with a real attempt to understand each other happens. That means the builders have to be willing to go beyond what is their right and be willing to talk about feelings whether the feelings are "justified" or not. No doubt the Republic will survive if this center is built on its current site or not. But I think this is a missed opportunity to try to have an open discussion about why this is a big deal because it is a big deal to a lot of Americans who are not just right wing politicians pushing the hate button again. I think those people need to be heard respectfully whether they are right or whether they are wrong.

This has nothing to do with the right to build and unlike same sex marriage or the civil rights movement it is not about equal protection under the law. The rights of the builders are not in dispute. This is about ending the poisonous atmosphere engendered by fear and hate, and in order to do that there has to be genuine listening, hearing and willingness to compromise on both sides I personally believe that there are other possible solutions that could result from such a process and that a genuine exploration of those possibilities is something we ought to try.

[Wondergirl]

Again..a grass roots campaign before the next election can put an end to that in the future if you can get enough people on board.

Not to worry. We're on top of that.

[smoothy]

Where did I argue Muslims are exempt?

The slowdown in the economy stopped the teardowns, and the McMansion phase seems to be over now that conspicuous consumption isn't a priority.

Well, arguing they have a right to that Mosque at that site basically is.

No Christian has a right to build a church at just any location they wish, simply because they want to.

Then now is a good time to get it codified into something perminant... before the money starts lining pockets again and they are less receptive. ANd eventually that will happen... sometime after the current idiot is replaced and the next guy fixes all the screwups of the last two years. And if THAT never happens then heaven help us all.

[Wondergirl]

"at that site"??

[smoothy]

"at that site"???

Again... Islamic Tradition is to build Mosques at the site of victorious battles... has been their policy for over 1,300 years.

Islamic Terrorists crashed planes into the Trade center towers... they succeeded in bring them down... and it wasn't their first attempt.

Next a Radical Imam want to build a Mosque damn close to Ground Zero... with funding from unknown sources in the Middle ast where they were Cheering the terrorists that day. Not US muslims... Middle eastern anti-american muslims... only one possible reason, and none of them are either helpful to americans or endearing to the american public.

That's preciesely akin to the Japanese erecting a memorial outside the entrance to the USS ARizona Memorial in Pearl Harbor to the Japanese Pilots killed by Americans during that attack.


Or the Germans Erecting a memorial outside Auchwitz to honor the Nazi soldiers that died from diseases caught from the concentration camp prisoners.