[paraclete]

It seems 20 million people are now affected by the floods in Pakistan, that's more people than the Tsunami even though the deathtoll isn't yet as high. The statistics associated with this event are staggering. Pakistan was already all but a failed nation with much of its infrastracture in poor repair now the world must begin another major reconstruction program as well as find a way to alleviate homelessness, starvation and disease but there are no billions in aid on offer this time around and the logistics of actually getting aid to this number of people are daunting. This isn't a nation with the resources to help itself, with a military of 1 million you might expect it would be. Crop losses alone are estimated to be $1 billion and that is before an assessment, estimated to take two months, is even begun

We must begin to ask ourselves is this a freak event or a new reality that the world should be gearing up to meet at any time?

[twinkiedooter]

Did it ever dawn on you that this was a case of manipulated weather here? Also a great way of displacing the population. It's HAARP at work.

Also, in Australia the ongoing drought WAS manipulated and still IS being manipulated. I had a friend several years ago that owned a shipping company get a call to come and move heavy equipment that pumped underground water out of the ground in Australia. Then he got a call to move the same equipment to another locations in Australia. Odd, but shortly after this the areas that had this underground water siphoning system are the areas in Australia that are now drought stricken even more than they were before the pumping equipment was "introduced" into that area. Gee, I guess this was just a coincidence, huh? Sounds like "someone" wanted Australia to have LESS water for it's populace.

[tomder55]

Haarp... wouldn't have something to do with the annual Monsoons ?Did Haarp also cause the China flooding and mudslides ?

However ,these floods challenge the definition of "natural disaster" . It is a stretch to call these "natural " (and no I am not talking global warming) .

1,100 people have been confirmed dead in the northwest province of Gansu China despite China's continuous efforts to control the waters of the monsoons and annual glacial melts . Their dam projects are disasters waiting to happen.

For some perspective this list of worse floods shows that so far;as bad as these floods have been ,they don't scratch the record book.
List of deadliest floods - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Speaking of Aussies ,the elections this week should prove interesting . I hear it's too close to call ;but I also hear Red Julia is packing her bags.


Where are the telethons and the UN call to action ?

[paraclete]

Did it ever dawn on you that this was a case of manipulated weather here? Also a great way of displacing the population. It's HAARP at work.

Also, in Australia the ongoing drought WAS manipulated and still IS being manipulated. I had a friend several years ago that owned a shipping company get a call to come and move heavy equipment that pumped underground water out of the ground in Australia. Then he got a call to move the same equipment to another locations in Australia. Odd, but shortly after this the areas that had this underground water siphoning system are the areas in Australia that are now drought stricken even more than they were before the pumping equipment was "introduced" into that area. Gee, I guess this was just a coincidence, huh? Sounds like "someone" wanted Australia to have LESS water for it's populace.

Tell me, did HAARP also cause recent flooding in the US? It's a great conspiracy theory but it seems the Earth is capable of producing great floods without HAARP. Australia has been becoming dryer for two centuries of our recorded history. The artesian basin is a gigantic underground sea, pumping water out of it has no effect on drought, the Darling Rver once carried paddle steamers over much of it's length just like the Mississippi, today it is dry in many parts, how do you pump a river that drains a continent dry? Drought in Australia is caused by the Indian Ocean oscillation and the El Nino oscillation.

[paraclete]

List of deadliest floods - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Speaking of Aussies ,the elections this week should prove interesting . I hear it's too close to call ;but I also hear Red Julia is packing her bags.


Where are the telethons and the UN call to action ?

Great statistics Tom

Yes Tom the Little Red Fox goes up against the budgee smuggling Mad Monk and from my observation she is packing and I don't mean her bags. The factor that is outside the box here is the mood of the NSW electorate, there could be a swing of 25% there as there was in a recent state bi-election. If that happens it will wipe Labor out and not before time. Australians don't like being ruled by faceless men.

Where is the call to help Pakistan? That is the point of my post. It is going to take billions to even begin and I think the world has disaster appeal exhaustion. I don't think people want to pour money into another corrupt asian regime

[KBC]

The USA has been a supporter of Pakistan since it's inception in the late 40's.Being such a strategic location we are bound to stay allied with them, and send the billions of aid plus additional for this 'disaster relief'.It's already proposed.

I looked up a few statistics on US/Pakistan relations and see that we don't really care if the regime is corrupt,the location means more than the governing bodies and the US seems to turn a blind eye.

We send them military assistance for the fight against the Taliban,they ADMIT they use it to fight other fronts,then give us a song and dance,a Taliban official(yes,it was their #2), but how much IS a criminal worth?

Their country is run by so much corruption(military for the last? 50-60 years now? )and we still haven't put an end to the madness?We actually ADD to their corruption?With our non existent tax dollars?

I would like nothing more than to see them fail,end the so called government and let some other regime start it anew.Can't be any worse than it has been.

In my opinion.

[paraclete]

I would like nothing more than to see them fail,end the so called government and let some other regime start it anew.Can't be any worse than it has been.

IMHO.

You would like to see them fail? That is very bloody minded of you. You really are clueless. If Pakistan fails then the Taliban and other muslim extremists are given an opportunity to expand their activities and take over a nuclear arsenal. That cannot be allowed to happen so a regional war will begin which could quickly escalate. Pakistan is held together by the military so any alternative regime will be military. Pakistan is one of the few muslim democracies, we don't want the experiment to fail in Pakistan

[KBC]

Exactly my point.Experiment that is failing terribly.

Name calling isn't necessary, it shows a lack of intelligent debating skills.

[paraclete]

Exactly my point.Experiment that is failing terribly.

Name calling isn't necessary,,it shows a lack of intelligent debating skills.

Not name calling to state a self evident fact, I think the recent change in regime demonstrates that the experiment has succeeded, not failed. That the nation is failing for want of resources to develop speaks to the legacy of colonial rule, and lack of education and training, not political failure. Pakistan is a nation cobbled together out of what was left of the Indian Raj. It takes generations to improve living standards and lift a population out of poverty, particularly if that population doesn't begin with a sense of national cohesion and it isn't helped by the brain drain to western nations

[KBC]

Brain drain to western nations?That needs some explaining if you please.

In more than 50 years there has been an input of funds,military support,humanitarian support,etc from how many nations?

In 50 years there has been a replacement or placement of Pakistan nationals into how many governing bodies?Namely the UK.

In those 50 plus years,how much change has ,say,YOUR country been through?How about China?Or the former USSR?

50 years of repeated insanity(defined as doing the same thing over and over,expecting different results)has made what changes occur in the 'former Indian Raj.'?'

Yes,the USA did support the Taliban(when it seemed they were the lesser of evils),now we have changed our position.Has the Pakistan military truly changed theirs?Or are we simply funding the corruption and funneling monies to the society we are fighting?

Tell me I am wrong.Explain how I am wrong.I like debate(without trying to downplay someone for having an opposing view as yours.)

[tomder55]

I agree with Clete
I have argued here before that our natual allies in the region is India . THe US /Paki alliance may very well be a Cold War relic . However ,the consequences of abandoning it at this point would be catastrophic.

The current elected regime is NOT military ,and I see no indication that the military is interested at this time in ruling the nation.
The current President Asif Ali Zardari is the widower of Benizar Bhutto ,was constitutionally elected ,and was an opposition leader against the military rule of Pervez Musharraf.

If there is an chance at reform in Pakistan it will be under his leadership. These floods at this time is the last thing needed politically .

[KBC]

Yet their military is how large?Nearly a million strong?

Their GNP is spent on whom?Not the people or their welfare,unless it's spread out through the military.(Western officials have claimed nearly 70%( roughly $3.4 billion) of the aid given to the Pakistani military has been misspent in 2002-2007.However U.S-Pakistani relationship has been a transactional based and U.S military aid to Pakistan has been shrouded in secrecy for several years until recently.)

We forgave money loaned(In 2003, the U.S. officially forgave US$1 billion in Pakistani debt in a ceremony in Pakistan as one of the rewards for Pakistan joining the U.S. war on terror.)

Recognizing national security concerns and accepting Pakistan's assurances that it did not intend to construct a nuclear weapon, Congress waived restrictions (Symington Amendment) on military assistance to Pakistan. In March 1986, the two countries agreed on a second multi-year (FY 1988–93) $4-billion economic development and security assistance program. On October 1, 1990, however, the United States suspended all military assistance and new economic aid to Pakistan under the Pressler Amendment, which required that the President certify annually that Pakistan "does not possess a nuclear explosive device."
India's decision to conduct nuclear tests in May 1998 and Pakistan's matching response set back U.S. relations in the region, which had seen renewed U.S. Government interest during the second Clinton Administration. A presidential visit scheduled for the first quarter of 1998 was postponed and, under the Glenn Amendment, sanctions restricted the provision of credits, military sales, economic assistance, and loans to the government. An intensive dialogue on nuclear nonproliferation and security issues between Foreign Secretary Shamshad Ahmad and Deputy Secretary Talbott was initiated, with discussions focusing on CTBT signature and ratification, FMCT negotiations, export controls, and a nuclear restraint regime. The October 1999 overthrow of the democratically elected Sharif government triggered an additional layer of sanctions under Section 508 of the Foreign Appropriations Act which include restrictions on foreign military financing and economic assistance. U.S. Government assistance to Pakistan was limited mainly to refugee and counter-narcotics assistance.

This is just the TIP of the iceberg we call Pakistan.And now we are sending MORE assistance?To THIS?

[tomder55]

It's from the surplus available from not sending aid the Memphis.

[KBC]

it's from the surplus available from not sending aid the Memphis.

:confused:

[paraclete]

I'll try to take it one by one

Brain drain to western nations?That needs some explaining if you please.. )

When Pakistan was formed Britain opened its doors to anyone who wanted to leave, basically its former public servants migrated leaving a great hole. Since that time students have gone overseas and stayed, trained professionals leave that is what is meant by brain drain.

.)

In more than 50 years there has been an input of funds,military support,humanitarian support,etc from how many nations?

In 50 years there has been a replacement or placement of Pakistan nationals into how many governing bodies?Namely the UK.

In those 50 plus years,how much change has ,say,YOUR country been through?How about China?Or the former USSR? )

I'll discuss my own county and contrast it with what I know of Pakistan

60 years ago some of our suburban roads and main roads were dirt, that is how it is in Pakistan today. I have seen new subdivision with modern houses with connecting roads which are little more than goat tracks. The great difference is we have had the resources to make the change but our currency is worth more, probably 50 times more in purchasing power. Donkey carts intermingle with heavy transport even in main cities. When is the last time you or I saw a horse, etc used in that way. A pizza in Pakistan can cost me as much as it does here. 60 years ago we lacked some basic services like sewerage and sulage water disposal, that is how it is in Pakistan today. They lack basic garbage services we take for granted. In fact if you look at the place you can see it has been in decline for many years. China has developed greatly in the last twenty years once it developed a market economy but a great deal is done there for show. Vast modern towns with no one living in them and the old towns bustling.

.)

50 years of repeated insanity(defined as doing the same thing over and over,expecting different results)has made what changes occur in the 'former Indian Raj.'?'.)

I think you have to contrast India and Pakistan and of course the big difference is religion. The Indians are not held back and have developed, Pakistan remains in a time warp dependent on foreign aid.

.)

Yes,the USA did support the Taliban(when it seemed they were the lesser of evils),now we have changed our position.Has the Pakistan military truly changed theirs?Or are we simply funding the corruption and funneling monies to the society we are fighting?

Ah the ex factor, fighting a proxy war for someoneelse. Pakistan has suffered by being an instrument of american imperialism. The Pakistan military probably hasn't changed their view of Afghanistan, they long remember how many invaders have come by that route, so their view is they want a buffer zone and they will use american money to achieve their objectives which is a tame Afghanistan whether full of islamic militants or not. Funding Pakistan has not made america popular in Pakistan, at the very least they are suspicious of the motive particularly with Iran as a potential target. You need to remember a vibrant reconstructed Afghanistan is not in the Pakistan national interest, just more competition and India is an ever present threat in the pakistani mind

[paraclete]

This is just the TIP of the iceberg we call Pakistan.And now we are sending MORE assistance?To THIS?

The pakistani opposition leader says they don't need foreign aid so why is the US sending money? Just fueling the corruption I guess
Pakistan does not need western aid, opposition leader claims - Telegraph
What I think is the US needs to get off its ego trip and be much more constructive about how it spends its money. Military aid is just keeping US industries afloat under the guise of helping

[tomder55]

Yes the opposition leader would like nothing more than Zardari falter and fall over the response to the floods. Check their motives. The Taliban also said that US aid was not needed. Do you believe them ?

KBC re Memphis... I was speaking to the late and anemic response by the Obama Administration to the Tennessee River flooding of Memphis .

[paraclete]

Check their motives. The Taliban also said that US aid was not needed. Do you believe them ?
.

I can understand why the Taliban think american aid is not needed.
1. The opium crop can finance most needs
2. american aid comes with corruption, which is saying something in a place like Pakistan or Afghanistan where corruption is endemic, but it is a different form of corruption
3. The Taliban live a simple life and don't want outside influence

[KBC]

And with the aid offered they can SAY they didn't want it,and in doing so,use it for alternate uses(say, umm, Military,like they have been for the past 50-60 years... just the norm for that country)

Again,you see my comments earlier about them 'failing' as bloody minded, I am simply saying that if we keep supplying military supplies and money supposedly for the betterment of their safety and internal needs is insane.

By your last comment(s),American aid comes WITH corruption?And we don't see this as a negative?I am 'bloody minded' because I want just that to come to an end?

It's not only the opium crops that fund their needs,they have other major incomes, some which won't be made open till they are either toppled or are exposed for the corrupt state they are.(and you know the US won't make an example(or expose anything) of a strategic area like Pakistan unless they are going to get something real big out of the deal.)

Thus far,we have been able to deflect all focus on the problems of our own internal political debates,the Gulf oil incident,political debates,the failing infrastructure of the US,political debates.. you get my point.

As long as we can deflect focus away from real issues,the powers that be can pretty much do whatever they want to do, even bilaterally.

This obfuscation is commonplace in the government, has been since I have been in the 'notice' of how our country is run.

How flooded? How little light do WE have to see how flooded we are in this?

Again,if we stop funding corruption,it MUST float on it's own or fail.If the 'people' of the said country want things to change, they must make that change happen, (yeah,the democratic process)

If they can't or won't they will be over run by what?Further corruption?
Can't get any worse than what they already have there.(And we as a nation aren't out on the limb paying for the terrorist and feeding the machine we are supposedly fighting,that is the insanity I referred to before)

Flood away,perhaps then the people who wanted this 'freedom' a generation ago will actually DO something with the freedoms they have gained.. or fail as a whole.

[tomder55]

Again,if we stop funding corruption,it MUST float on it's own or fail.If the 'people' of the said country want things to change, they must make that change happen, (yeah,the democratic process)

If they can't or won't they will be over run by what?Further corruption?
Can't get any worse than what they already have there.(

Many people around the world live under the jack boot of tyranny with no means to change it. The mostly middle class green revolution in Iran has for the most part been brutally and effectively snuffed out. Yet you expect people living in mud huts to rise up and seize freedom on their own.

Yeah lets just cut off the world and let them sink and swim on their own... oh wait... we tried that twice before in the 20th Century and we ended up getting dragged into a much worse situation .

For a proportional comparison ;if this was in the US there would be 35 million homeless because of the floods.
3.5 million children are at risk from diseases like cholera, typhoid, dysentery ,diarrhea spread
By the flooding .

Yeah lets let them sink .That should help "win hearts and minds ".