[dwashbur]

[QUOTE=Moparbyfar;2453516]

Excellent point WGirl! There are many scriptures that back this belief up, Isaiah 45:18; Eccl 1:4; Psalm 37:29 to name a few, so why doubt God's purpose for this beautiful home of ours?

If a landowner rents his brand new home to thugs who then trash it and turn it into a hovel, what will he do? Burn the building down? No he will evict the tenants and find more responsible ones to care for it properly. The same with God and the earth. Doesn't this show God to be truly loving as it brings out in 1 John 4:8? So how could a God so loving and merciful punish a mere human for all eternity? That idea is in complete contrast with the words in Psalm 104:9 "He will not for all time keep finding fault, Neither will he to time indefinite keep resentful."

Dwashbur, I'm busy brushing the dust off my feet. :p

;) I don't think any of us here dispute the idea of a final resurrection and eternal life on the new earth described in Revelation 22. The question is about those who don't end up there.

Those who end up in hell do so because they reject God. God doesn't punish them, they basically choose their fate. Once again, the torment and all that is a human attempt to describe the indescribable: a place totally devoid of God's presence. It has nothing to do with whether God is loving or not, it has to do with people's choice to reject him and spend eternity without him.

[Athos]

[QUOTE=dwashbur;2454090]

Those who end up in hell do so because they reject God. God doesn't punish them, they basically choose their fate....... It has nothing to do with whether God is loving or not, it has to do with people's choice to reject him and spend eternity without him.

Dwashbur (and others)--

God creates you. God, being all-knowing, knows exactly that you will reject God. God knows this from all eternity. You cannot change what God has known from all eternity. You wind up in hell. Why did God create you in the first place if he, in his infinite all-knowingness, knew that you would wind up in hell?

If this is the way it works, how could this be a loving God?

[dwashbur]

[QUOTE=Athos;2454402]

Dwashbur (and others)--

God creates you. God, being all-knowing, knows exactly that you will reject God. God knows this from all eternity. You cannot change what God has known from all eternity. You wind up in hell. Why did God create you in the first place if he, in his infinite all-knowingness, knew that you would wind up in hell?

If this is the way it works, how could this be a loving God?

Whether God knows what will happen or not, the choice is still yours. Nobody twists your arm or puts a gun to your head. How could God be a loving God if he didn't give you a choice? That's a better question. It's all in your definition of "loving," and yours is lacking in this respect.

[TUT317]

[QUOTE=Athos;2454402]

Dwashbur (and others)--

God creates you. God, being all-knowing, knows exactly that you will reject God. God knows this from all eternity. You cannot change what God has known from all eternity. You wind up in hell. Why did God create you in the first place if he, in his infinite all-knowingness, knew that you would wind up in hell?

If this is the way it works, how could this be a loving God?

Hi Athos,

From your statement it get the impression that you are a fatalist. You don't think there is such a thing as free will. This is not a criticism>just curious.

Regards

Tut

[Wondergirl]

God creates you. God, being all-knowing, knows exactly that you will reject God. God knows this from all eternity. You cannot change what God has known from all eternity. You wind up in hell. Why did God create you in the first place if he, in his infinite all-knowingness, knew that you would wind up in hell?

If this is the way it works, how could this be a loving God?

Your existence is the product of choices made by your parents. God has not predestined any of us to be born. He is not responsible for creating anyone to be sent to hell. People have absolute free will within the confines of their personal ability and thus choose to reject Him (i.e. go to hell) rather than submit their lives to Him.

If what you say is true, why would God bother with this intermediate stage in the first place? Why not just bypass this life, create people, and put them in heaven?

[Athos]

[QUOTE=dwashbur;2454473]

Whether God knows what will happen or not, the choice is still yours. Nobody twists your arm or puts a gun to your head. How could God be a loving God if he didn't give you a choice? That's a better question. It's all in your definition of "loving," and yours is lacking in this respect.

You say "whether God knows what will happen or not", but that's the point, is it not? God DOES know, at least if he is posited as an all-knowing God. There's simply no getting around it - an omnipotent God who creates a creation that he knows will go to hell can hardly be called a loving God.

You say my definition of "loving" is lacking. Easy to say, but I note you didn't support your comment.

To Tut -- No, I'm not a fatalist. I'm merely pointing out an obvious contradiction in the notion of God if he is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving. Free will, in this definition of God, does not exist. I define "loving", at least in part, as NOT sending someone to hell. The logic is inescapable.

To Wondergirl - Of course God has predestined us to our destination. Calvin understood this and came up with what I believe is the most horrendous understanding of God ever described. But, to give Calvin his due, he was logically consistent.

Theologians and philosophers from the beginning have grappled with this conundrum - to no avail, I might add.

It really is a simple logical exercise. To deny it is a reflection of what one wants to believe, and I understand that.

Blaise Pascal, among many others, confronted with the logical difficulties of "God", concluded that a "leap of faith" was necessary. As did Kierkegaard. And so many others over the years.

When anyone tries to fit God into their notions of rationality, they always wind up against a wall of confusion.

Better to just say "I don't know", go on believing, and leave it at that. Trying to fit God into a place where he cannot be "fitted" does nothing but allow others to deconstruct a false proposition.

[Wondergirl]

Of course God has predestined us to our destination.

When anyone tries to fit God into their notions of rationality, they always wind up against a wall of confusion.

I rest my case.

[Athos]

I rest my case.

Your "case" was that God has NOT predestined us. Exactly what case are you resting?

[Wondergirl]

Your "case" was that God has NOT predestined us. Exactly what case are you resting?

Stuffing God into a box.

[Athos]

Stuffing God into a box.

Ok. Ergo, you agree with my original post. Good for you.

[Wondergirl]

Ok. Ergo, you agree with my original post. Good for you.

Ergo. No, I don't.

[Athos]

Ergo. No, I don't.

Then, what is your case?

Do you still believe in hell?

[Wondergirl]

Do you still believe in hell?

What definition do you use?

[Athos]

What definition do you use?

Hell as in the Bible - a place of eternal punishment.

[Wondergirl]

Hell as in the Bible - a place of eternal punishment.

Fire and brimstone too? Weeping and gnashing of teeth? (Those are also in the Bible)

[Athos]

Fire and brimstone too? Weeping and gnashing of teeth? (Those are also in the Bible)

I see you won't answer. You'll just keep quibbling and post silly responses. I'll look in tomorrow to see if you've answered.

[Wondergirl]

I see you won't answer. You'll just keep quibbling and post silly responses. I'll look in tomorrow to see if you've answered.

Hell is where God is not.

"Eternal punishment" is a very broad term. Quibble? Silly responses? No, I'm trying to pin you down as to what you mean by that. Do you mean something like what's depicted in The Last Judgement (Sistine Chapel)? You don't like the "eternal" part? The "punishment" part? I'm guessing the former.

[Fr_Chuck]

It could be anything of punishment, we are often given examples. For Excon perhaps he would be stuck at a BUSH family reunion. But seriously, yes, the bible gives us examples of it, plus the knowledge that it will be a place of great suffering.
So fire or now fire, a punishment is still just that.

[TUT317]

[QUOTE=Athos;2454592]

To Tut -- No, I'm not a fatalist. I'm merely pointing out an obvious contradiction in the notion of God if he is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving. Free will, in this definition of God, does not exist. I define "loving", at least in part, as NOT sending someone to hell. The logic is inescapable.

Hi Athos,

What you say above is actually correct.

God is all-powerful, all-knowing, all- loving and there is evil in the world. You can have any three of these propositions together but you cannot have all four together. Therefore, in that respect you are correct.

However, there are some counter arguments.


Regards

Tut

[Moparbyfar]

What will God do with the evicted tenants?

Psalm 9:17
Romans 6:23
Psalm 37:9,10
Psalm 145:20
Zephaniah 1:17,18

Complete destruction, annihilation for the wicked.