[bb2455]

WHere can this be used?

[donf]

UF cable is "Underground Feeder" cable. It can be used underground.

[bb2455]

That was easy enough, But Where I was actually going with that was: I'm trying to find the UL Listing that tells me that I cannot use UF wire in a)PVC conduit and b) to supply power to a pool pump or GFCI outlet.

[bb2455]

I have tore up my code book l;ooking for supporting answers to these questions and only have found that: Uf can be used for direct burial and in Art 340.10 & 340.12 and in 340.12 it talks about NO physical damage to wire... No Rocks... How do you Protect the wire if you can't put it in Conduit? THe wire is also rated for Sunlight resistant and has a 90 degree C Temp rating. 2 Feet underground in New York (Centrial) The ground is not going to get that hot that deep. So, all things being equal with only using 80% fill and the right wire for the right load and I want to protect this wire why can't I put it in PVC Conduit?
I Need actual Support for this answer Please.
I've looked up a lot of UL listing numbers but have not found the right one yet, But I know it's out their.

[donf]

Okay, <Corrected for accuracy per following posts>

UL listing is not what you need.

This book you have, is it the NEC 2008 Electrical Code? If you have a NEC code book, Go to the article on "UF" cable, Article 340. You can also find the code book on-line.

You will find a "Permitted Uses" (article 340.10) and "Uses Not Permitted" (article 340.12).

UF cable can be used in conduit, that's how the cable is protected when it exits the ground. And it can be exposed to sunlight if the cable is listed as sunlight resistant.

The answers are in the code book.

I am now sure that UF cable can not be used in a pool area if the grounding conductor is not insulated. Article 340.12 does not list such a prohibition.

However, article 680.21 (A) (1), Swimming Pools - Motors: "... Any wiring method employed shall contain an insulated grounding conductor sized in accordance with 250.122 but not smaller than 12 AWG."

For the record, the type of conduit used under article 680.21 (A) (1) states that, "The branch circuits for pool-associated motors shall be installed in Rigid Metal Conduit, Intermediate Metal Conduit, Rigid Poly Chloride reinforced thermosetting resin conduit (type RTRC)."

The type of conduit used will dictate the depth of the conduit, see article Table 300.50, columns 1 through 6.

For example RMC (Col. 3) requires 6 inches of top cover while RNC (2) requires 18 inches of top cover.

[tkrussell]

Where did you get that UF cable is not permitted in conduit?

It is, and is outlined in Chapter 9, Table 1, a cable can be considered as one conductor at max 53 conduit fill, and use the largest dimension of the cable to size the conduit. Depending on the amount of bends, a larger conduit may be needed.

Pulling UF cable through conduit of any distance,while allowed, is not typically done by professionals. Rather, individual conductors are pulled.

You mention pool pump. UF cable is NOT allowed for any pool wiring, if it has a bare equipment ground. Any pool wiring must use a fully insulated equipment grounding conductor.

So, exactly what is your situation?

I am not sure where Don gets his information.

UF cable can be used for interior wiring, same as NM-B cable ( AKA Romex).

Most, if not all, UF cable is rated as Sunlight Resistant.

Sizes of wire available in UF are #14, #12, #10, #8, and #6, so I dno't see any issue with sizes.

[stanfortyman]

bb2455, just a word of advice. It would have been better the start right off with the information you gave in posts 3&4. Considering what you are doing (wiring a pool) your original post would have never gotten you the right information, and would have definitely gotten you all the wrong information.
Details are the key with things like this.


You do not need to look in Art.340. You need Art.680, which specifically forbids UF cable for ANY outdoor wiring related to pools (due to the bare ground as TK explained).

This is no place for someone with no experience to be messing around. If you insist on doing this job please get a few good books, or reputable web sites, that explain ALL the codes and rules with regard to wiring and bonding a pool.

[donf]

T.K.

I got my information by blending types "USE" and "UF" together.

I was to lazy to get off my fanny and walk to the other side of the house and get the code book.

I did correct my initial post, would you be kind enough to review it for accuracy, please.

[donf]

Stan,

UF cable is not specifically named in article 680.21 (A) (1).

However, as I read the article, Any cable or conductor that has a bare Equipment Grounding Conductor is prohibited. Did I read and understand this article correctly?

[bb2455]

Well, You are right about one thing, I should have stated more about the 2 subjects that I was referring to.
Subject one had to do with... Where does it say that you cannot run UF-B sunlight resistant wire in PVC or any other outside conduit? And

[bb2455]

So you see you can run UF cable to a GFI outlet, But NOT over to the Motor That feeds to the motor. That needs to be run in THWN/THHN Copper Single conductor wire.
You can also protect that UF cable coming out of the ground from the 2ft ditch in PVC.
So, What is left to this question is now going away from the POOL question and now from the main house to an out building In UF IN PVC Conduit.

[bb2455]

Now to end the why as to my questions: by the way thanks for all the feedback guys,
I know of Inspectors that think that they are Mini Gods and wave their wand around and tell people one thing when they really DON'T Know the answer or It used to be that way, But they haven't up graded their knowledge and tell people to do things that shouldn't be.
I do have all the latest 2008 books I do know how to work my way around them, But
Once in while I get such a bur up me that I ask for another oppion to double check myself. Sorry about mixing up the 2 questions together. That was the brain thinkng faster than the fingers could type.
I don't believe that you should have different rules to the same problem from different places that are EQUAL in Problem. Meaning a guy on one side of the street wants to run power to an out building should have the same set of rules as the guy across town with the same set up.
When someone askes me a question I want to give them the right Supported Information not hear say information.

[donf]

Wow, now I have no understanding of where you are going. Why in heavens name are you beating up on electricial inspectors? One of their jobs is to make sure that the work you do does not kill yourself or someone else.

You cannot for a minute consider a pool installation to be equal to a building electrical service installation!

To begin with, the NEC is basically a safety standard. Not a how to book.

Consider this, an electrical inspector is bound by the NEC Code and the supplements to this NEC code that the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) requires him to use. And by the way, what happens if the AHJ has their own standards and do not adopt the NEC standards? Also, the standards for residential and commercial installations do not apply to the Power Utilities. They have their own code regulations. Utilities do not use the NEC codes (with the exception of offices and similar enviroments)

Just because the NEC released the 2008 version of code does not mean that your State or County is using 2008.

For example, I live in Virginia. Here we are still using the 2005 version of code. We will switch to the 2008 version as soon as the "Building Codes" incorporates the 2008 code level.

I believe that sections of Washington D.C. are still using 2002 code.

Regardless, if an electrical inspector "violates" some work during his inspection, he has to tell you exactly what the violation is.

As to running cable between separate buildings and pools being different there are reasons.

Chief in point would be the content of the pool vs. the building. You do not fill a building with water.

Pools have very stringent safety considerations.

"Out buildings" have different safety considerations. For example a feeder to a separate building must be a 4 wire feeder under 2008.

At the panel in the separate building you cannot bond the Neutral to the metal of the box. Ground and Neutral must be isolated from each other. Also, you must use a grounding rod connected to the panel to protect against such things as lighting.

One more invalid comparison would be to consider the wiring in a residential room to be the same as the wiring in a hospital patient's room. They are in no way the same and probably never will be the same.

It is just not apples to apples. It is more like apples to motor boats.

[stanfortyman]

Now to end the why as to my questions: by the way thanks for all the feedback guys,
I know of Inspectors that think that they are Mini Gods and wave their wand around and tell people one thing when they really DON"T Know the answer or It used to be that way, But they haven't up graded their knowledge and tell people to do things that shouldn't be.
I do have all the latest 2008 books I do know how to work my way around them, But
Once in while I get such a bur up me that I ask for another oppion to double check myself. Sorry about mixing up the 2 questions together. That was the brain thinkng faster than the fingers could type.
I don't believe that you should have different rules to the same problem from different places that are EQUAL in Problem. Meaning a guy on one side of the street wants to run power to an out building should have the same set of rules as the guy across town with the same set up.
When someone askes me a question I want to give them the right Supported Information not hear say information.

I'm really not sure where all this is coming from now. Did someone (incorrectly) tell you you could run UF for pool equipment? Was someone else allowed to use it and you are (correctly) being told no?
What is going on exactly?