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classyT · Jun 22, 2010, 07:16 AM

The Bible says that Jesus was fully God and fully man. I believe the Bible. We know from the scripture that Jesus lived a perfect life and that he never sinned; not even so much as a wrong thought. So, could he have sinned? Was he capable of sin?

JoeCanada76 · Jun 22, 2010, 08:22 AM

Well All men are capable of sin. Was Jesus a man?

Or is sin something we put a label on something that we think is not right?

Jesus got angry, he got mad, he threw people out of the temple. Being angry is that a sin?

Sin can be defined as specific acts or even thoughts. So it all depends on what people think real sin is.

It is all subjective.

jakester · Jun 22, 2010, 10:27 AM

hey Tess - hmmm... this is one of those age-old questions that if it were a simple one to answer, would not require asking ;)

Was he capable of sinning? Capable can suggest an inclination or disposition towards something... in this case sin. Given what we know (after the fact), Jesus was not capable of sin because in every circumstance of life where his commitment to God was tested, he never failed. So answering that question (was he capable of sinning?) is easy to do now that we know all of the circumstances and acts of Jesus after they occurred.

But maybe another question we could raise is was it possible for Jesus to sin? I think that since the opportunities to sin for Jesus were presented through the trials of Satan, the "possibility" for Jesus to sin must have been a reality... if not, why would the temptations of Satan to Christ have even occurred? I think it was possible for Jesus to sin but if he had sinned, the rest of God's story would not be what it is... he would have told a different story.

Another question may be raised at this point. If Jesus were not capable of sin and yet the possibility of Jesus sinning were a reality, what was the point of the trials Jesus faced? Hebrews makes the case that in order for Jesus to be a qualified high priest, he needed to be able to empathize with us in our struggles against sin. He can be a more effective High Priest because he has come face to face with temptation, felt the stings of it (consider how Jesus was hungry and weak while Satan came to tempt him), and yet was able to still do the right thing and obey God.

And I might add that the high priestly quality of Jesus is what sets him apart from all other "Gods." No other religion can boast of a God who was so thoroughly intimate with the human experience that he became human, faced the temptations of sin, knew sorrow and pain, and in the end chose to be merciful to those who killed him.

classyT · Jun 22, 2010, 11:18 AM

Jake,

I know it is a tough question. Hmmmm? So you think it was possible. Interesting... I don't believe it was possible at all.

As our High Priest he could relate to what we go through because he had the physical needs of a human being. He is God he couldn't have sinned. But I'm looking to back that up with some scripture. Anyone agree with me? Can anyone think of a scripture to back it up?

Joe,

I totally disagree with you. He was God in the flesh and he had righteous anger because he was Holy and Perfect. If Jesus even had one bad thought he couldn't have paid for my sins... he was completely without sin and I just don't believe he could have sinned.

The definition of sin from what I read according to the Bible is anything God has said Not to do and we do it... or anything God has said TO do and we don't do it. I don't see it as being subjective at all.

I've been known to be wrong though... ( very rare) ha! :0

jakester · Jun 22, 2010, 05:53 PM

Tess - I don't think anything is at stake in believing that it was possible for Jesus to sin. Believing it was possible is not akin to believing that Jesus was somehow sinful.

One argument for the possibility that Jesus could sin is the fact that he is actually human. Sometimes when we say that Jesus is fully God and fully man, it's as if what we are really saying is that Jesus is fully God in a human suit (just skin). He has all of the look and feel of a human but he's really not. Well, if that were true, the real significance of Christ's temptations fade into insignificance. The cards would have been so stacked in Christ's favor during those temptations that the temptations would have just been a silly formality. Jesus could have pulled back his human suit and said to Satan "you're no match for me, silly Devil." Jesus was no fake human. The temptations were real and a significant event for him. As Richard D. Phillips put it "The issue is this – if Christ was not able to sin then he was not really human as we are. In this case, Jesus does not really know what it is to be in our situation, and his perfect obedience before the Father was not a real and meritorious achievement."

I am elated at the fact that Jesus in his divinity was able to withstand sin and remain obedient to God because my salvation hinges upon it. Ultimately, I believe that Jesus would not have sinned because he possessed the character and divinity of God. "Even if we are going to affirm that Christ was able to sin because of his fully human nature, we must add that even in this human nature, and certainly in his divine nature, Jesus had no inner disposition to sin. Jesus had no motivation to sin, and therefore he did not sin; in this sense he could not sin. If the same were true of us we also would not sin; the reason we sin, after all, is that we are motivated to sin." (Phillips).

Wondergirl · Jun 22, 2010, 05:56 PM

Yes He could have sinned, but He didn't. He was the perfect Adam.

classyT · Jun 22, 2010, 06:11 PM

Jake,

I agree with you to a point. I'm just thinking that there was nothing in Him that could respond to sin. Even a wrong thought! I mean,how does anyone get through life without a wrong thought?. He didn't have a" flesh" or the "old nature". Now I KNOW that Adam didn't at first either. BUT... Adam was 1. created and 2. created to be innocent... Not fully God and fully man. The Lord Jesus Christ is, was and always will be HOLY. I don't think he could have.

I look at it this way, when we are formed to his image and get the mind of Christ and a perfected body without spot or blimish in heaven, will we be able to sin? The thought is crazy. If I can sin in heaven then trust me Jake, I will. ( lol, I know me)

Or are you saying that he could have sinned before the resurrection? I'm curious as to your thoughts? I'm not trying to argue. I just got into a long discussion with someone and I really want some input.

Wondergirl · Jun 22, 2010, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

Jthere was nothing in Him that could respond to sin. Even a wrong thought! I mean,how does anyone get through life without a wrong thought???

That was the whole point -- that He COULD sin, but He didn't.

Adam didn't have any wrong thoughts for who knows how long. One day he did. He gave in to temptation, was convinced that the fruit of that tree would make him like God. For some reason, that day that idea sounded awfully cool. So he took a bite.

Jesus never was tempted enough to give in, even when Satan offered Him the world. Jesus was created as Adam had been, with the capacity to sin. That's why Adam is called the Old Adam and Jesus is the New Adam -- one gave in and the other didn't. Both started with the same potential. You, however, did not, so you can't equate Jesus' thoughts and actions to your own.

classyT · Jun 22, 2010, 06:24 PM

WG,

It is possible that I am wrong... but I don't think he could have. Interesting though.

Wondergirl · Jun 22, 2010, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

WG,

It is possible that I am wrong...but I don't think he could have.

Yup, this time you are wrong. Jesus' being human and able to sin and yet not sinning is the entire point of His story here on earth and the thing that makes His sacrifice on the cross so important for us! Otherwise, big deal! So our God died for us. Bet it was a walk in the park for Him then.

Kitkat22 · Jun 22, 2010, 06:37 PM

No... Jesus did not sin.

Wondergirl · Jun 22, 2010, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by Kitkat22

No ...Jesus did not sin.

The question on the table is, could He have sinned? ClassyT says no; most of the rest of us say yes. But he didn't.

Kitkat22 · Jun 22, 2010, 06:44 PM

I don't know. Honestly, I don't. I think he had a free will just as Adam did.. but he was without blemish. We know he was tempted by Satan. I think he could have said yes if he had wanted, but he was doing his Fathers will. He had to be strong.

Wondergirl · Jun 22, 2010, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by Kitkat22

I think he could have said yes if he had wanted

Precisely!

classyT · Jun 22, 2010, 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Yup, this time you are wrong.

Tee hee. Now WG, you know I'm not giving up that easy. Back up your thoughts with scripture.

Kitkat22 · Jun 22, 2010, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Precisely!

I'm thankful he was so strong. Strong enough not to call heavens angels to take him from the cross.. He loved us that much. Love is what made him strong.

jakester · Jun 22, 2010, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

Jake,

I agree with you to a point. I'm just thinking that there was nothing in Him that could respond to sin. Even a wrong thought! I mean,how does anyone get through life without a wrong thought???...He didn't have a" flesh" or the "old nature". Now i KNOW that Adam didn't at first either. BUT...Adam was 1. created and 2. created to be innocent...Not fully God and fully man. The Lord Jesus Christ is, was and always will be HOLY. I don't think he could have.

I look at it this way, when we are formed to his image and get the mind of Christ and a perfected body without spot or blimish in heaven, will we be able to sin? The thought is crazy. If I can sin in heaven then trust me Jake, i will. ( lol, i know me)

Or are you saying that he could have sinned before the ressurection? I'm curious as to your thoughts? I'm not trying to argue. I just got into a long discussion with someone and I really want some input.

Tess - I absolutely understand what you are saying. It may be that what it is you are taking issue with is that spot that's a little difficult to get at with great clarity. It's that tension between Christ's divinity and his humanity that is really in view here. What is it about Christ's humanity that made the temptations significant, not his divinity?

You're question about the resurrection is interesting... I'll have to consider that a little more and come back to it but I was not suggesting a difference between pre and post resurrection.

It's late so I'm done for the night... I'll pick this up again.

classyT · Jun 22, 2010, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by Kitkat22

I don't know. Honestly, I don't. I think he had a free will just as Adam did..but he was without blemish. We know he was tempted by Satan. I think he could have said yes if he had wanted, but he was doing his Fathers will. He had to be strong.

TO ALL...
It is a hard question. In fact, I don't even know where the church I attend stands on this one. I myself do NOT see my savior as able to sin. He, in MY eyes, is better than any "superhero" because he had no kryptonite. He COULDN'T make a mistake. Remember he is fully God and fully man. God who knows all and spoke the world into existence, AND fully man,without the sin problem. It TOOK God to redeem this sinful creation. I think it is a beautiful thing... I don't see it as a walk in the park for Him... I also don't see him STRUGGLE for any kind of control over sin. But at the same time, I don't want to disgard or diminish the fact that He was tempted. When the word tempted is used... does it mean he wanted to but he fought the urge? Someone tempted me tonight with chocolate. I like chocolate but I didn't need the calories . I COULD have eaten it, it looked good but I had NO real desire and I don't like how I feel after I eat sweets. Do we have to have a desire in order to be tempted?

Hey! I think I got to the root issue!! Did Jesus ever have the desire to do His own will? See? I don't think he ever did.

Wondergirl · Jun 22, 2010, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

It TOOK God to redeem this sinful creation.

The entire point that we are saved is that it took a God who was fully HUMAN and subject to temptation (lots of Bible verses to support that) to do it, one who could withstand the temptation that Adam couldn't.

If there's no desire, then there's no temptation. I have no use for and never want to own an SUV, and even Oprah couldn't tempt me with one. I have no desire, and there's no temptation. Thus, there's no sin.

Jesus was tempted. Think of the Garden. He wanted to walk away, was tempted to walk away, could have walked away, but he withstood the temptation.

classyT · Jun 22, 2010, 08:58 PM

WG,

OK! That is excellent advice, thank you.. I shall go read that again with fresh eyes and ears.