[dwashbur]

It may be a while before I'm able to get back to this discussion; I'm battling a massive case of the Creeping Crud right now and feel like the proverbial accident looking for a place to happen. I'll keep reading, I might not respond for a few days.

[dwashbur]

There are still unfulfilled prophecies concerning Israel.

I know. You say most of them are symbolic, but symbols DO mean something.

What do you say about the earthquake that will divide Jerusalem when Jesus returns?

What about the nations gathered against Jerusalem and the horrific end promised for them?

What about the one that gives the months necessary to bury Gog? That hasn't happened yet.

I'm sure there are others.

Could you give references please.

[dwashbur]

Plus Dave,

If Nero's name is really translated to the number 666, why do you take that literally and nothing else. If the antichrist was Nero, he didn't do anything the bible says the antichrist is gonna do. There was no 7 year peace treaty, there was no forcing the world to take the number on the right hand and forehead. He didn't have the power that the antichrist is going to have. You take the number of his name literally enough..why not take the rest of what he is suppose to do literally?

I'm not taking anything literally; I'm understanding it as a symbol and interpreting it as such. Once again, there is no single "antichrist." You need to get over that. Apparently some people in New Testament times were making that same mistake and John set them straight in his epistles.

The character described by the number persecutes believers and is generally not a nice person. He demands to be worshiped and requires you to identify yourself a certain way (the "mark"); Nero demanded that everyone swear allegiance to him as a god in order to be able to transact business. You want to take the "right hand or forehead" literally but what it indicated to John's listeners was, become a slave. All this is exactly what Nero did. I'm not taking anything literally; I'm looking at the symbols the way the author intended them and understanding them the way he set them out. You're the one trying to take things literally, like the mark thing and the forty-two months and all that. And of course, there's nothing in Revelation about any peace treaty with Israel.

[450donn]

I'm not taking anything literally; I'm understanding it as a symbol and interpreting it as such. Once again, there is no single "antichrist." You need to get over that. Apparently some people in New Testament times were making that same mistake and John set them straight in his epistles.

The character described by the number persecutes believers and is generally not a nice person. He demands to be worshiped and requires you to identify yourself a certain way (the "mark"); Nero demanded that everyone swear allegiance to him as a god in order to be able to transact business. You want to take the "right hand or forehead" literally but what it indicated to John's listeners was, become a slave. All this is exactly what Nero did. I'm not taking anything literally; I'm looking at the symbols the way the author intended them and understanding them the way he set them out. You're the one trying to take things literally, like the mark thing and the forty-two months and all that. And of course, there's nothing in Revelation about any peace treaty with Israel.

And Dave is that not YOUR OPINION?
Many disagree with you on this issue, so get over it.
See I take the whole word of God as just that. While there might be symbolism in some passages, many of it is literal. Guess we will all be surprised in the end when it comes as to how inaccurate we all are.

[galveston]

Could you give references please.

1. Earthquake divides Jerusalem. Rev. 16:18-20
2. Plague on forces that fight against Jerusalem. Zech. 14:12
3. Time required for Israel to bury Gog. Eze. 39:11,12

Also, the Beast and the 666 are clearly tied together. You say Nero was 666, but the judgment declared against the Beast are given here, and none of it happened to Nero's Rome. Rev. 16:1-10

[dwashbur]

And Dave is that not YOUR OPINION?
Many disagree with you on this issue, so get over it.
See I take the whole word of God as just that. While there might be symbolism in some passages, many of it is literal. Guess we will all be surprised in the end when it comes as to how inaccurate we all are.

Actually, no, it's not just MY OPINION (why are we yelling that?). It's been the opinion of several major biblical scholars over the past 100 years or so. It was a very common technique called gematria, using numbers to encode information, especially when the comments you made about somebody important could get you killed. Calling Nero a "beast" definitely fits that category! You haven't heard much about gematria and similar approaches because it doesn't sell a gazillion books and movies like Left Behind-type stuff does.

Yes, there's a lot of literal stuff in the Bible. Revelation just doesn't happen to be part of the type of literature that does that. Get over it yourself; learn something about ancient literary styles and stop being so anachronistic.

[dwashbur]

1. Earthquake divides Jerusalem. Rev. 16:18-20
2. Plague on forces that fight against Jerusalem. Zech. 14:12
3. Time required for Israel to bury Gog. Eze. 39:11,12

Also, the Beast and the 666 are clearly tied together. You say Nero was 666, but the judgment declared against the Beast are given here, and none of it happened to Nero's Rome. Rev. 16:1-10

Thanks for the references. I'll try to look at them later after I ingest massive doses of various medications.

[450donn]

Get over it yourself; learn something about ancient literary styles and stop being so anachronistic.

I just love how you attack those that tend to disagree with you. That is one of the main reasons I have nearly quit posting on here.

[dwashbur]

I just love how you attack those that tend to disagree with you. That is one of the main reasons I have nearly quit posting on here.

And what exactly do you call this, if not attacking?

And Dave is that not YOUR OPINION?
Many disagree with you on this issue, so get over it.
See I take the whole word of God as just that.

[galveston]

Going to have to go with Dave here. Even though he clearly doesn't agree with me on several points, I don't feel that he is attacking me.

Let's keep the disagreements civil or we will not get to continue.

PS, Dave, hope you are feeling better!

[Wondergirl]

Get over it yourself; learn something about ancient literary styles and stop being so anachronistic.

I just love how you attack those that tend to disagree with you. That is one of the main reasons I have nearly quit posting on here.

Do you know what "anachonistic"means? (P.S. It isn't an insult.)

I'm totally in Dave's camp. That's what I was taught in a Christian college back in the early '60s, and it's still being taught there today. Revelation is written in code, is over and done with, and God didn't give us the key to the code.

What I had found really interesting is something our pastor had mentioned in a study of Revelation and 666 = Nero. The pastor said that Jesus = 7 (perfection), man = 5, and Satan = 6. With Nero getting triple 6s, that made him a real bad dude!

The Hebrew word for seven is Sheva/Sheba (hmmm, queen of Sheba), and the number seven is used innumerable times in the Bible: 70 x 7 represents the perfection of forgiveness, there are seven days in a week, the seven seals in Revelation, the seven words of Gen. 1:1, the seven last sayings of Jesus on the cross, the number seven several times in the Flood story, how the books of the Bible fall easily and naturally into seven categories, and so on.

[dwashbur]

Do you know what "anachonistic"means? (P.S. It isn't an insult.)

I'm totally in Dave's camp. That's what I was taught in a Christian college back in the early '60s, and it's still being taught there today. Revelation is written in code, is over and done with, and God didn't give us the key to the code.

What I had found really interesting is something our pastor had mentioned in a study of Revelation and 666 = Nero. The pastor said that Jesus = 7 (perfection), man = 5, and Satan = 6. With Nero getting triple 6s, that made him a real bad dude!

Following up on the Nero thing, before I go further into it I want to make sure we're all using the same vocabulary. This is not meant to be condescending to anybody, I just need to ask: does everybody interested in this thread know what a variant reading in the manuscripts is? If someone doesn't, please say so and I'll give the Readers Digest version. Again, I just want to be sure we're all on the same pages before going further.

Galveston, so far this stuff isn't letting go of me very quickly, but the miracle of chemicals keeps it from being too bad, heh heh. I'm trying to wait until it eases off a little more before I dig into those passages you presented, but if it hangs on much longer I'll just buck up and check them out.

[N0help4u]

The pre trib believers have been taught that that is the only way. They are taught why would God put a Christian through the tribulation? They do not want to look at the obvious things like many have died for their faith. In the end when they are here and having to face the end times they are going to have it a lot harder. I use to think the story of the foolish virgins at the end of Matthew was about the believer being the wise virgin and the non believers the foolish ones. I realized the foolish virgins are the ones in the Church looking for the next spiritual 'experience' and the rapture to take them out of here.

[Wondergirl]

Following up on the Nero thing, before I go further into it I want to make sure we're all using the same vocabulary. This is not meant to be condescending to anybody, I just need to ask: does everybody interested in this thread know what a variant reading in the manuscripts is? If someone doesn't, please say so and I'll give the Readers Digest version. Again, I just want to be sure we're all on the same pages before going further.

Please give us the RD version, so it will be here in black and white, and no one can get offended or plead ignorance later.

[dwashbur]

Please give us the RD version, so it will be here in black and white, and no one can get offended or plead ignorance later.

"By your command" :D

Before printing, everything was copied by hand. The products of this copying are known as manuscripts (abbreviated ms in the singular, mss in the plural). Some copies of documents were made by private individuals; in the case of books for general publication there were professional scribes who hired their services out, often making several copies of a particular work. The New Testament comes to us in manuscripts. While we don't have the original documents that came from the hands of the writers, we have over 5,000 manuscripts of the New Testament, in full or in part, some dating as early as the second century, less than 100 years after the original writings. There are places where the manuscripts disagree; that's what happens when humans are involved. They make mistakes. The places where manuscripts disagree are known as variant readings. The science of textual criticism involves comparing manuscripts and their readings and determining which readings are original (what the author actually wrote) and which are later alterations or mistakes. By comparing these manuscripts, examining the writers' styles, vocabulary, and other aspects of their writing, we can determine with confidence more than 99% of the text of the New Testament. And in nearly all cases, we can figure out why and how a variant reading came about.

So that's what variant readings in the manuscripts are. Any questions before I move on?

[Wondergirl]

Any questions before I move on?

*raising my hand*

I was taught that those who copied (and all were doing so seriously with great attention to detail) and made any accidental mistakes tended to omit rather than add. I also learned that most variant readings do not change the sense of the passage very much -- "He said" might be copied as "Jesus said" or "He said to them."

Do you agree?

[classyT]

The pre trib believers have been taught that that is the only way. They are taught why would God put a Christian through the tribulation? They do not want to look at the obvious things like many have died for their faith. In the end when they are here and having to face the end times they are going to have it a lot harder. I use to think the story of the foolish virgins at the end of Matthew was about the believer being the wise virgin and the non believers the foolish ones. I realized the foolish virgins are the ones in the Church looking for the next spiritual 'experience' and the rapture to take them out of here.

NOhelp4u,

You know I love you, and you know 9 times out of 10 we agree on the bible... but I really disagree here.

It isn't that I think suffering through tribulations isn't something a Christian isn't going to have to do. The Lord himself said we would. I am so fortunate that I haven't had to hide to read my Bible... or I haven't had any member of my family tortured for their profession of Christ. I mean REALLY tortured... my goodness, what some have endured just for owning the name of the Lord Jesus Christ is horrifying!! The Apostle Paul called his sufferings for Christ a "light affliction". In the USA, I haven't suffered physically for His name sake. Nor any of my family... so far.

I'm not looking for an experience either. In fact, when the rapture happens it will be so fast, I don't think anyone will have time to have a spiritual experience.

I believe to my core that we are the bride of Christ. We are not appointed to God's wrath... ( in any FORM... Davey boy... aka Dwash). AND that is what is going to happen on this earth. The WRATH of God is going to be poured out... one right after the other during those 7 years and especially the last 3 1/2. It isn't going to be about suffering for his name... it is going to be for ALL of the earth and ALL those who have rejected the truth. ( and there will be millions saved DURING this period incidentally that will go through it, they just won't be part of the Bride) I believe it not because I want to escape persecution, and suffering because we are pretty much promised THAT as a Christian. But because the Bible teaches the bride of Christ will not go through these 7 years.

[classyT]

"By your command" :D

Before printing, everything was copied by hand. The products of this copying are known as manuscripts (abbreviated ms in the singular, mss in the plural). Some copies of documents were made by private individuals; in the case of books for general publication there were professional scribes who hired their services out, often making several copies of a particular work. The New Testament comes to us in manuscripts. While we don't have the original documents that came from the hands of the writers, we have over 5,000 manuscripts of the New Testament, in full or in part, some dating as early as the second century, less than 100 years after the original writings. There are places where the manuscripts disagree; that's what happens when humans are involved. They make mistakes. The places where manuscripts disagree are known as variant readings. The science of textual criticism involves comparing manuscripts and their readings and determining which readings are original (what the author actually wrote) and which are later alterations or mistakes. By comparing these manuscripts, examining the writers' styles, vocabulary, and other aspects of their writing, we can determine with confidence more than 99% of the text of the New Testament. And in nearly all cases, we can figure out why and how a variant reading came about.

So that's what variant readings in the manuscripts are. Any questions before I move on?

Say it S L O W like I am a two year old. Because if I'm reading it right, you are saying our bible's are not 100 percent accurate in the NT.

(sorry you are sick... hope you are getting better btw) :)

[Wondergirl]

Say it S L O W like i am a two year old. Because if i'm reading it right, you are saying our bible's are not 100 percent accurate in the NT.

You read it right. We don't have the originals. Everything is a copy. They all were copied to be true to the original -- but aren't and disagree with each other in various ways.

Dave is saying that scholars compare the copies and match 'em up as to what agrees with what and where and how often, and then make an attempt to decide which ones are probably closest to the originals.

[dwashbur]

Say it S L O W like i am a two year old. Because if i'm reading it right, you are saying our bible's are not 100 percent accurate in the NT.

(sorry you are sick.....hope you are getting better btw) :)

They're not 100 percent accurate in the Old Testament, either. See the example I gave in the "liberal or conservative" thread.

Yes, there are places where we're not sure what the exact wording is. No major Christian doctrines are affected by any of the variants, but there are definite differences. One example is in Romans 5:1. Is it "we have peace" or "let us have peace"? It's a difference of one letter: a long O versus a short O. It's easy to see how that variant came about: in professional copying houses (called scriptoriums, or, if you're a Latin purist, scriptoria) one person would read the document out loud while a room full of scribes would write down what he was saying. A little slip of pronunciation or not hearing quite right could easily lead to writing down the wrong O. (It doesn't help that, within about 500 years of the writing of the New Testament, Greek evolved to the point where both letters were pronounced the same.) Which is the correct reading? Hard to say, the evidence is about equal. Going by Paul's context etc. I lean toward "we have" but won't go to the wall for it.

That's just one example. There are plenty more, but hopefully that illustrates the situation.