[dwashbur]

ditto....in case Dave needs to understand what ditto means....it means I concur..i agree..Galveston rocks and is absolutely correct.

So why does Paul call the church the Israel of God?

[classyT]

Dave,

Please provide me with the book, chapter and verse. I will answer you when I read it in context. :)

[dwashbur]

Dave,

Please provide me with the book, chapter and verse. I will answer you when I read it in context. :)

Galatians 6:16.

[galveston]

Galatians 6:16.

You can't build theology on only one reference. Paul consistently taught that there are no divisions in Christ.

However,

I don't see how you can say that the nation of Israel has no role in end time prophecy.

Or did you say that?

[galveston]

An added thought.

Since the events of what is called the rapture include the resurrection of the righteous dead and the changing of the living righteous, I think I can safely say that we BOTH believe in the rapture.

Our difference has to do with the timing of that event.

[dwashbur]

An added thought.

Since the events of what is called the rapture include the resurrection of the righteous dead and the changing of the living righteous, I think I can safely say that we BOTH believe in the rapture.

Our difference has to do with the timing of that event.

Agreed.

[classyT]

Dave,

Boy you ask the hard questions don't you. I like it. :)

Let me read the entire book of Galatians and I will get back with my thoughts on why Paul uses that term. Very interesting.

BUt I do agree with Galveston... you can't build a theology on only one reference.

I shall return. :)

[dwashbur]

You can't build theology on only one reference. Paul consistently taught that there are no divisions in Christ.

However,

I don't see how you can say that the nation of Israel has no role in end time prophecy.

Or did you say that?

I'm not building on only one reference. Jesus told the religious leaders that the Kingdom was being taken from them and given to someone else. Paul said that we are grafted-in members of Israel in addition to calling the church the Israel of God. The supposed activity related to Israel in Revelation has to be symbolic, because the twelve tribes listed have no resemblance to any other list of the twelve tribes anywhere else in the entire Bible.

So yes, I say the nation of Israel has no role in end time prophecy. A national Israel is meaningless; God deals with people as spiritual individuals and always has. See the "before Jesus" thread on the Christianity board, where most everybody agrees that God has always dealt with people on the basis of faith, not on nationality or ethnicity.

[classyT]

Dave,

You really aren't putting what Paul said in context. Paul is so clear on who the church is and the difference between grace and those under the Law. In Galatians, we find this assembly in trouble because they are giving up the truth of the gospel that Paul preached and started listening to false teaching. They started adding to the gospel and putting themselves back under the law.. by adding works as a part of salvation.

In the last chapter, what I glean is there are these Jewish teachers insisting and pushing the Gentiles to become circumcised in order to receive the promises of God. The Apostle Paul is letting them know this is NOT the case at all. It isn't about Jews or Gentiles.. it is about becoming a new creature in Christ Jesus. Those that follow this rule... of being a new creature are insured the promises of peace and mercy the real believers, the new creatures.

Paul never refers to the Church as the Israel of God except ( maybe) here. It has to do with what these "cirucumcised" Judiazing false teachers are pushing, being under the law is the way to come under God's blessings.

There were a few Gentiles mentioned in the OT, who did become believers because of their faith. I didn't get into some big discussion on the thread "before Jesus" about it because I knew it would be really unpopular to talk about his covenant with Israel. BUT... for the most part in the OT it is Israel that God was dealing with. We get a few Gentiles thrown in here and there. ( Ruth is an awsome picture of the Church.) BUT He hasn't forgotten them and he won't forget them. He has temporarily set them ( the nation not individual Jews) aside... he is calling out a people for his name sake... His Bride.. but rest assured he will deal with Israel again.

Prophecy is all about the nation of Israel. He that neither slumbers nor sleeps has his eye on them. He has an everlasting covenant with them and he isn't going to just take it back.

Numbers 23:19

God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

So.. I'm tired.. not sure I'm making lots of sense. Are you saying you believe in replacement theology? That God is finished with Israel and the church is now the "Israel of God"?

[classyT]

You cannot turn on the news and not see something about Israel on it almost daily. Come ON Dave... 1948 Israel became a nation in a day ( another prophecy fulfilled). What other peoples have gone back to their land after being exiled for 2000 years. What other people even know who they ARE after NOT having a homeland for that long. They have been scattered all over and God has brought them back to the Land. ( another prophecy being fulfilled before our eyes) I haven't seen any "philistines" running around lately.. have you? :D

[dwashbur]

Paul never refers to the Church as the Israel of God except ( maybe) here. It has to do with what these "cirucumcised" Judiazing false teachers are pushing, being under the law is the way to come under God's blessings.

I'm not sure I follow you. What does that have to do with the church being the Israel of God?

There were a few Gentiles mentioned in the OT, who did become believers because of their faith. I didn't get into some big discussion on the thread "before Jesus" about it because I knew it would be really unpopular to talk about his covenant with Israel. BUT... for the most part in the OT it is Israel that God was dealing with. We get a few Gentiles thrown in here and there.

We also get loads of Israelites who are rejected, destroyed, oppressed, you name it, because they abandon God and turn to idols or whatever. It was never about nationalism or ethnicity, as I already said; it has always been about faith and trust in the Lord. He chose a particular group of people to transmit his revelation through, but that certainly didn't give them a free ride to heaven or automatically insure his blessings. Look at the people at the foot of Sinai. They saw God at work, heard the rumblings, and all that, and they still turned away and forced Aaron to make an idol for them. God destroyed them. Do we suppose those people were taken to paradise once they hit the bottom of the ravine that opened under them? I think not. No faith, no salvation. Thus it has always been, as far back as Cain and Abel. What was Israel's role? To bring God's revelation to the world, as described in Romans 2. But just like every other person in every other age, the only way they were saved was through personal faith. There's no national guarantee of anything, and never was.

( Ruth is an awsome picture of the Church.) BUT He hasn't forgotten them and he won't forget them. He has temporarily set them ( the nation not individual Jews) aside... he is calling out a people for his name sake... His Bride.. but rest assured he will deal with Israel again.

He already is. Individual Jews can come to Christ just like the rest of us can. That's the whole point. There's no national element to it. Yes, there's a nation of Israel again. And it's about as godless as it ever was during the time of the Judges (that comes from a Rabbi in Denver, not from me; I'm quoting). Does God have a special plan or a special soft spot for them? No. Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, Jew Gentile, in Israel, in North Dakota, whoever, wherever. There's no difference, as Paul hammers away again and again.

So.. I'm tired.. not sure I'm making lots of sense. Are you saying you believe in replacement theology? That God is finished with Israel and the church is now the "Israel of God"?

No, not "replacement." If I had to put a label on it, which I don't like to do, I'd have to call it "blending." The Israel of God includes all believers, regardless of their ancestry.

[classyT]

[QUOTE=dwashbur;2341316]

Dave:

We also get loads of Israelites who are rejected, destroyed, oppressed, you name it, because they abandon God and turn to idols or whatever. It was never about nationalism or ethnicity, as I already said; it has always been about faith and trust in the Lord. He chose a particular group of people to transmit his revelation through, but that certainly didn't give them a free ride to heaven or automatically insure his blessings. Look at the people at the foot of Sinai. They saw God at work, heard the rumblings, and all that, and they still turned away and forced Aaron to make an idol for them. God destroyed them. Do we suppose those people were taken to paradise once they hit the bottom of the ravine that opened under them? I think not. No faith, no salvation. Thus it has always been, as far back as Cain and Abel. What was Israel's role? To bring God's revelation to the world, as described in Romans 2. But just like every other person in every other age, the only way they were saved was through personal faith. There's no national guarantee of anything, and never was.

Totally agree with you there had to be by faith back then too. I never meant that I believed that all Jews automatically went to heaven. I doubt we see ol King Saul there. BUT God did make a covenant with the Nation of Israel. He chose to bless these people, he even said he'd bless nations that blessed Israel. They are the apple of his eye and that hasn't changed.

He already is. Individual Jews can come to Christ just like the rest of us can. That's the whole point. There's no national element to it. Yes, there's a nation of Israel again. And it's about as godless as it ever was during the time of the Judges (that comes from a Rabbi in Denver, not from me; I'm quoting). Does God have a special plan or a special soft spot for them? No. Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, Jew Gentile, in Israel, in North Dakota, whoever, wherever. There's no difference, as Paul hammers away again and again.

Paul hammers away at THIS: There is no difference IN the BODY of Christ. There is NO Jew in the Body of Christ, there is NO Gentile in the BODY of christ. We are EXACTLY the same in the Body of Christ. He never once says that God is finished with the nation of Israel. The scriptures teach quite the opposite.

It is not a coincidence Israel is now a nation after being exiled for over 2000 years. It is not a coincidence she became a nation in a day.. fulfilling prophecy in 1948.

What I find really interesting is John Darby who was one of the first (besides PAUL) to teach about the age of Grace,the rapture and end times, realized that Israel would have to become a Nation again before Daniels prophecy could be fulfilled. He had no clue of how or when the Jews would return to the Land. ( Honestly, the only way it could have happened is because God said it would because the odds are ridiculous) As I stated before in my last post, what other people have EVER done that? What other people have lost their land, their nation for 2000 years but not their identity? John Darby was born in the 1800's, so he couldn't have known exactly when it would happen. He just taught it would because that is what he saw in the scriptures. It isn't by chance... nothing regarding Israel is just happenstance.

[dwashbur]

[QUOTE=classyT;2341484]

Dave:




Totally agree with you there had to be by faith back then too. I never meant that I believed that all Jews automatically went to heaven. I doubt we see ol King Saul there. BUT God did make a covenant with the Nation of Israel. He chose to bless these people, he even said he'd bless nations that blessed Israel. They are the apple of his eye and that hasn't changed.



Paul hammers away at THIS: There is no difference IN the BODY of Christ. There is NO Jew in the Body of Christ, there is NO Gentile in the BODY of christ. We are EXACTLY the same in the Body of Christ. He never once says that God is finished with the nation of Israel. The scriptures teach quite the opposite.

I never said he was finished with them. I said he deals with everybody the same way he's always dealt with them: by faith. They haven't even been "set aside" as dispensationalism claims. They're still just as much God's people as we are when they believe in Christ and come to God by faith. As you say, there's no difference, we're all exactly the same in Christ. Believing Jews are just as much His body as believing Gentiles, and thus it has always been.

It is not a coincidence Israel is now a nation after being exiled for over 2000 years. It is not a coincidence she became a nation in a day.. fulfilling prophecy in 1948.

It's not a coincidence that the re-establishment of the nation of Israel came within a few years of the defeat of the Nazis, either. In fact, it came about BECAUSE of what the Nazis did to the Jews. The real question is this: is the current incarnation of the "nation of Israel" really what God had in mind, and is it really the fulfillment of this prophecy you speak of? Considering the religious attitude of said nation, I doubt it.

[classyT]

Dave,

YES! Just because they are "Godless" doesn't mean anything. How many times was Israel in this condition? Come ON! Most of the time. They couldn't keep it together right after entering the wilderness after the Exodus. And read the book of HOSEA... pretty much sums up their relationship with God. You even said yourself that the book of Judges is basically where they are as a nation spirtually... everyone doing what is right in their own eyes. What does that prove?
Did you really think after rejecting the Lord Jesus, being exiled for thousands of years they were all coming back to Israel with FAITH in God? Please!. YOU don't even believe they are special to God. How are THEY going to believe God who they don't really know or believe. Give the Lord time to deal with them. He will. Not all Jews are going to come to their senses... but the scripture is clear. Israel will repent for rejecting their Messiah. They will realize it during the 7 year tribulation... and I'm going to watch you eat crow at the wedding supper of the Lamb. I am requesting a seat next to YOU. (nasty stuff that crow.) Whilest I dine on something much more tasty... TRUTH. YUMMO! :D

( Hitler was just another (small) type of the antichrist that is to come like NERO.. don't you think it is STRANGE that these people are so hated.. ) If you can't see the spirtual battle going on for these people and this nation... then you are as blind as God says they are.)

[dwashbur]

Dave,

YES! Just because they are "Godless" doesn't mean anything. How many times was Israel in this condition? Come ON! Most of the time. They couldn't keep it together right after entering the wilderness after the Exodus. And read the book of HOSEA... pretty much sums up their relationship with God. You even said yourself that the book of Judges is basically where they are as a nation spirtually... everyone doing what is right in their own eyes. What does that prove?
Did you really think after rejecting the Lord Jesus, being exiled for thousands of years they were all coming back to Israel with FAITH in God? Please!. YOU don't even believe they are special to God. How are THEY going to believe God who they don't really know or believe. Give the Lord time to deal with them. He will. Not all Jews are going to come to their senses... but the scripture is clear. Israel will repent for rejecting their Messiah. They will realize it during the 7 year tribulation... and I'm going to watch you eat crow at the wedding supper of the Lamb. I am requesting a seat next to YOU. (nasty stuff that crow.) Whilest I dine on something much more tasty... TRUTH. YUMMO! :D

Let's try this again. There's nothing national about God's grace or salvation. The reason God singled out Israel was as a conduit for his revelation. Paul says as much in Romans 2. That was their ONLY advantage. I really don't care that a Jewish nation called Israel exists again; it might or might not be significant. It might or might not last. And the Jews themselves are still scattered all over the globe; not that many have gone back there. The vast majority don't want to. So the diaspora is still alive and well; in fact, there's a HUGE segment of the Jewish population that rejects the current "state" as a genuine reincarnation of Israel. It's easy to look at what's there right now and get all excited, but there's no guarantee that it actually means anything in the long run. But the reality is, God's revelation is complete in Jesus, so there's no reason for a separate nation to be a conduit for it any more. And what's the essence of that revelation? Come to God by faith and be forgiven. Thus it always was, and thus it will always be. Will some Jews come to Christ? Sure, they do right now, just like the rest of us. Is there any significance to a person's nationality or ethnicity? Nope. None whatsoever. You keep emphasizing that there's no difference, then want to turn around and say there is. Either there is or there isn't; you can't have it both ways. The people of God are the people of God in any place or time. Those are people who trust him and accept his forgiveness, regardless of where they came from or who their ancestors were. No difference means no difference. National borders are artificial, human inventions with no meaning in God's eyes. The Jews were a people all through the centuries between 70 and 1948; so were the Russians, the American Indians, the Chinese, the Egyptians, the Gauls, you name it. The only difference was where they were, and that's meaningless.

( Hitler was just another (small) type of the antichrist that is to come like NERO.. don't you think it is STRANGE that these people are so hated.. )

Nero wasn't a "type" of anything. The number of the beast on Revelation 13 spells out his name. I still haven't seen you deal with that. And Hitler wasn't a type of anything either; he was just plain evil. The Jews weren't the only ones he persecuted, they were just his primary target. For his reasons, read Mein Kampf and check out the economic situation of Germany during his time. Before him, the main reason they were so hated went back to the whole "Christ-killers" attitude. During the colonial/empire era, the focus was on "savage" people rather than the Jews; most every group has had their turn to be on the wrong end of prejudice and oppression. Once again, there's no difference.

If you can't see the spirtual battle going on for these people and this nation... then you are as blind as God says they are.)

Oh, are we going to start getting personal now??

[classyT]

Oh, are we going to start getting personal now??

Yeah.. I think I am. Gotcha running scared huh?:p

[dwashbur]

Yeah.. i think i am. gotcha runnin scared huh?:p

I'm trembling in my boots... oh, wait, I don't wear boots

[galveston]

There are still unfulfilled prophecies concerning Israel.

I know. You say most of them are symbolic, but symbols DO mean something.

What do you say about the earthquake that will divide Jerusalem when Jesus returns?

What about the nations gathered against Jerusalem and the horrific end promised for them?

What about the one that gives the months necessary to bury Gog? That hasn't happened yet.

I'm sure there are others.

[classyT]

Plus Dave,

If Nero's name is really translated to the number 666, why do you take that literally and nothing else. If the antichrist was Nero, he didn't do anything the bible says the antichrist is going to do. There was no 7 year peace treaty, there was no forcing the world to take the number on the right hand and forehead. He didn't have the power that the antichrist is going to have. You take the number of his name literally enough.. why not take the rest of what he is suppose to do literally?

[classyT]

Stick with me. I am trying to show you one of the MANY reasons I believe that God is NOT finished with the NATION of Israel.

Anyone who studied the Bible at all agrees that Joseph is a picture of the Lord Jesus. His Brothers are the sons of Israel..

Both were the favorite son of their father: Gen. 37:3, Matt. 3:17
Both were rejected and hated by their brothers and
Both were sold for the price of a slave: Gen. 37:28, Matt. 26:15
Their brothers conspired to kill both of them;
Joseph was the Savior of his people AND of the gentiles, Jesus, the Savior of all mankind
Both were taken into Egypt to avoid being killed: Gen. 37:28, Matt. 2:13
Both began their ministry at the age of thirty: Gen. 41:46, Luke 3:23
Both gained the confidence of others quickly: Gen. 39:3, Matt. 8:8
Both resisted the most difficult temptations: Gen. 39:8-9, Heb. 4:15.
Both were hated for their teachings: Gen. 37:8, John 7:7
Both were falsely accused: Gen. 39:14, Mark 14:56

Now check this part out:



Joesph's brothers come to seek food and help during the 7 year faminie Genesis 42:5,6,7

Israel is going to come seeking help in their distress during the 7 year tribulation period. Hosea 5:15


During the 7 years of Famine, Joesph feeds and takes care of his brothers (Genesis45:11)

During the 7 year tribulation the Lord, seals , protects and takes care of Israel Rev. 7:4

Joesph's brothers finally realize who Joseph really IS and were troubled and they wept. Genesis 45: 3, 14

The Nation of Israel will have her eyes opened and KNOW who HE is and mourn: Zecheriah 12:10

Joseph was the lord of the Land Gen. 45:8,

Jesus is Lord of Lord's and King of Kings Rev. 19:16.


This is NO coincidence... the Lord is painting the picture even in the very first book.