[sndbay]

Christ's promise; we call it the Roman Catholic Church and as promised she will persevere even from the gates of hell, possibly even the BOOK.

The members of the church are Christ's, not belonging to any other then HIM. Christ is the Bishop and Shepherd of the soul (1 Peter 2:25). Love for Christ Jesus prevails againt evil.

People are astonished by Christ's doctrine.
Our Lord and Saviour is at the gate!Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock :And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand

Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect: for all His ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is HE.

Revel 22:14 Blessed are they that do HIS commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Has the Catholic denomination shown all good fruits? A good reason not to follow man's doctrine.
Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

John 10:3 To HIM the porter openeth; and the sheep hear HIS voice: and HE calleth HIS own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

[sndbay]

Yes, they represented the Shewbread in Moses' Tabernacle, the bread in the presence of God.

Disagree!

The Apostles are not symbolized as the Bread of Life that is place before us. Christ is the Bread of Life, the sure bread known as the food from God given in sacrifice.

John 17:2 As thou hast given HIM power over all flesh, that HE should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given HIM.

John 6:3 For the bread of God is HE which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

The Word made Flesh
John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

This is what Peter was told to feed HIS sheep! As did the Apostles request in prayer that it would be God's will for them to do.

Yes the Apostles served the faithful; no they didn't 'serve' the Holy Spirit in the sense of that their role was to offer prayers, sacrifices, and libations like a Levite priest.

Their role was to do the will of God. Always praying to God in request that by God's hand of strenght they might be properous. And it was by spiritual guidance in the gospel of God's Begotten Son.

Romans 1:9-10 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.

~The Spirit dwells within the adopted children of God, that have been begotten again of Christ

[sndbay]

If I were to sift through the number of times “Kingdom of God” was mentioned in the New Testament I'd get about 227- times where the phrase is mentioned. I think I could get a pretty good picture of Christ's Kingdom. In the Gospel of Mathew alone we have a complete image of the 'establishment' of a Kingdom. To fulfill the covenant of the Old Testament prophecy demands Christ to establish the 'Kingdom'. Where do you suppose it went – are you going to argue that the Romans defeated the Kingdom of God in some untold saga?

Revelation 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

It is up to us in this world on earth to answer the calling of One Hope, or remain doomed with satan and sin.

I am in full assurance Christ is Lord in The Kingdom of God

2 Chronicles 13:5 Ought ye not to know that the LORD God of Israel gave the kingdom over Israel to David for ever, even to him and to his sons by a covenant of salt?

Christ is the Key of David, and new Jerusalem is betrothed to Christ.

The Kingdom of God that Christ rules over as the Shepherd that watches over HIS sheep, Bishop of all souls. Stands at the door to come in and give sup. Parable, properation of the Kingdom of God. (Mark 4:26 Luke 8:10)

Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Mark 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

[JoeT777]

For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. (John 6:55)

Disagree!

The Apostles are not symbolized as the Bread of Life that is place before us. Christ is the Bread of Life, the sure bread known as the food from God given in sacrifice.

Nobody doubted that you were – disagreeing that is. But, what then are we to make of the Christ saying he was the ‘meat’? Why would Christ feed his bothers bread when we all know that man doesn’t live by bread alone? Why would he feed us a manna that had a 24 hour shelf life? – you may recall that when the manna fell from heaven, it needed to be collected, processed and cooked in short order, or it would spoil. What value is a food like that? Sounds like Twinkie food to me – a worthless cake surrounding a sweet pasty center, but of no real nutritional value. How long can such sustenance last? I’ve been on Twinkie binges - can’t develop any muscle, just fatty weight that drags you down. Christ reminds us that our “fathers ate manna in the desert, and are dead. (John 6:49). Golly Gee Wilakers Horace! Sounds like all bun to me; such a short lived food can’t take a man through an eternity? Bread without meat is not fulfilling, the bread which is the knowledge of God is a worthless burger without the meat.

Suppose I could give you a real man’s food – something that sticks to the ribs, lasts an eternity, so to speak? As Christ said, why labor “for the meat which perishes;” why not work for “that which endures unto life everlasting, which the Son of man will give you.” So where’s the beef? Christ tells us where, and flat out, and it ain’t bread, “For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. (Cf. John 6:26, 55). You’ll find that Catholics like a 'real meat' burger of faith not a empty pastry on their buns. The meat is in the real presence of Christ.


JoeT

[sndbay]

For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. (John 6:55)

Perhaps you did not know that scripture speaks of the meat as knowledge and skill in righteousness.

And from what the Catholic denomination does teach, their commune gathering is one with sinners unskilled in righteousness. They are still the babe who uses milk.

But, what then are we to make of the Christ saying he was the 'meat'?

Christ is the branch of righteousness that was promised. Every Word of God is in teaching us to walk having the spirit, not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

So that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:4)

Why would Christ feed his bothers bread when we all know that man doesn't live by bread alone?

We live by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (Matthew 4:4 Luke 4:4)

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

~in Christ

[galveston]

Joe, without reprintine your post #76, I will try to clarify it for you.

I asked how Catholics know they are filled with the Holy Spirit and then showed what happened in the early Church when believers received this experience. They spoke with "tongues".

That is the initial evidence of the Spirit baptism. It is not the end or even the most important function of the Holy Spirit.

There are fruits of the Spirit, and gifts of the Spirit, two different things.

The Spirit filled believer may go on to receive one or more of the gifts of the Spirit which are given according to God's will for that life.

These gifts are then used by the believer to continue the ministry that Jesus began.

Clearer now?

Have you ever seen anyone receiving the Holy Ghost?

[galveston]

Here is the problem in any discussion of this kind.

Rom 8:3-8
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(KJV)

Carnal does not necessarily mean sinful. It simply means natural.

The carnal mind is one of the things dealt with in salvation, when the mind is "renewed" and can understand spiritual things.

Look at verse 8 above. The natural mind would say that anyone living on Earth can not please the Lord because they live in a body of flesh.

That idea is totally wrong, because "flesh" has to be understood as not having any spiritual life, and that life is Jesus Christ living in the believer through the Holy Ghost.

[JoeT777]

Perhaps you did not know that scripture speaks of the meat as knowledge and skill in righteousness.

Nonsense, flesh is meat – you’re getting nowhere solo.

Then you don’t know what Moses wrote? The Jewish Sacred tradition of Passover celebrates the first born of every family who ceremoniously eats the flesh of the sacrificial lamb; a commemoration when death passed over the firstborn of Israel. Don’t you watch movies? Good grieve Charlie Brown, everybody our age has seen Charlton Heston’s, ‘The Ten Commandments’ – you should’ve seen it a dozen times since its’ release in 1956. What Got Yul Brynner, aka Rameses, so mad that he went chasing after Moses in a rage? Rameses’ son was killed by the curse he himself uttered. Moses saw it coming and the ‘BLOOD’ of the sacrificial lamb was ordered to be placed over the door header so the curse would ‘PASS OVER’. And I get this part of the story right without the use of a BOOK – who’d a thunk it! Since then, (no, not since 1956 -, since Moses) part of the commemoration of Passover was to sacrifice the lamb in a special feasts and customs. At the home, there was the custom of ‘Pesachim’ which included a search the house for leaven bread. The household was cleared of common bread (leavened) which represented a blotted, vainglorious and arrogant sinful nature. It was hung over a lamp to burn out the leaven (corruption). You might recall Paul’s words “Purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new paste, as you are unleavened.” (1Cor 5: Judaism was steeped with metaphoric visions of leavened and unleavened bread that was culturally ingrained in the Jewish psyche, as it was Christ’s and the Twelve.

One of the many ecclesiastic feasts and ceremonies took place over about 15-days with the festivals ending on the Saturday before the day of the Pasch (fifteenth). On day 14, the male members of the family met in the synagogue or in the Temple and a sacrificed a lamb, part of which was carried home accompanied with the blood . The first born ceremonially ate the flesh of the Lamb and the blood was ceremonially placed on the door jambs. In Judasim, this is a real sacrifice, that is as opposed to a spiritual sacrifice. We know this because of the presence of blood related to the meat where spiritual sacrifices didn't include the reference to blood. The point being that this would have been much better understood, along with all the nuances of a multiple of images representative to the Jew; especially to the Pharisees. Now, re-read John 5 and 6 keeping these images in mind.

Most of John 5 regards other spiritual rituals however there is a sense of getting ready for Pesach (Passover) This period on Judaism yearly cycles is called Shalosh R’glim. The man in the pool that was told to get up and walk, efforts to get in the cleansing water are of particular importance in Judaism. But, what’s important to us is where Christ says to his Twelve; “If you did believe Moses, you would perhaps believe me also: for he wrote of me.” Notice that Christ appeals to their intellect as Jews - no demand for faith is made, not to the heart; maybe we can discuss this later, but it's important that the intellect is required of the Twelve. The question at the end of this chapter is cataclysmic to Christians without a teaching Magisterium, “But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

It’s a good question isn’t it? But we know little of Moses compared to our Jewish brothers, how then will we believe His words? The answer is in the Kingdom, His Church, His teaching Magisterium; she feeds the belly, the intellect, the heart and the soul. But, I know you’re disagreeable, so let’s continue. The miracle of 5,000 isn’t as much about the souls saved that day, as it was the millions saved from a people made unleavened sitting on that hillside that day.

Pasch was at hand, a sacrificial lamb was required, and for the first born of the Kingdom – among 5,000 were a special Twelve. Notice it is the men that are told to sit, notice that it is bread that is feed them – we’re not told; it's likely unleavened bread. Right out of the Jewish tradition of Seder. To complete the costom we need the blood sacrifice of the Lamb for the Passover meat of the first-born.

Well shiver-me-timbers; look what happens; Christ tells the first-born of his Kingdom, eat meat. He’s definitely not playing to the chick Pharisee’s cows who want moo miracles, you might say, ‘Punt the burger, pass the Chikin”! Not, at all! Christ says Moses' bread didn’t save. Why, because the bread of the intellect isn’t meat enough to last an eternity. The intellectual bread only lasts for this world. But, Christ will provide the beef that sticks to the soul's ribs, he says “I am that bread of life," the intellect of the living. I am the meat that death passes over, I am the meat of life, a flesh for the life of the spiritual world; a meat for the first-born of the Kingdom. The simple fact of the matter is that “unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.” A sacrificial meat for the first born in His Kingdom is given to us all; death will pass over.

And from what the Catholic denomination does teach, their commune gathering is one with sinners unskilled in righteousness. They are still the babe who uses milk.

Ok, am I supposed to get mad? Or what kind of reaction are you looking for here? I do a great impression of a mad Italian scientist.

Christ is the branch of righteousness that was promised. Every Word of God is in teaching us to walk having the spirit, not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

So that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:4)


We live by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (Matthew 4:4 Luke 4:4)

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

~in Christ

How do you know, not knowing what Moses wrote of ; remember what Christ said, “If you did believe Moses, you would perhaps believe me also: for he wrote of me”

JoeT.

[JoeT777]

Joe, without reprintine your post #76, I will try to clarify it for you.

I asked how Catholics know they are filled with the Holy Spirit and then showed what happened in the early Church when believers received this experience. They spoke with "tongues".

That is the initial evidence of the Spirit baptism. It is not the end or even the most important function of the Holy Spirit.

There are fruits of the Spirit, and gifts of the Spirit, two different things.

The Spirit filled believer may go on to receive one or more of the gifts of the Spirit which are given according to God's will for that life.

These gifts are then used by the believer to continue the ministry that Jesus began.

Clearer now?

Have you ever seen anyone receiving the Holy Ghost?

Is it clearer now – No
Have I seen the receipt of the Holy Ghost – No
Do I believe that there is a way to tell by observing a physical transformation – yes but I’ve not seen it and would consider it out of the norm.

JoeT

[arcura]

JoeT,
Well said.
When I finally came to believe that I left a breakaway Protestant sect from the Kingdom of God on Earth and became a Catholic.
That was over 35 years ago.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

Here is the problem in any discussion of this kind.

Rom 8:3-8
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.(KJV)

Carnal does not necessarily mean sinful. It simply means natural.

The carnal mind is one of the things dealt with in salvation, when the mind is "renewed" and can understand spiritual things.

I somewhat agree with you up to this point. Where I disagree is that the flesh referred to doesn't sin in and of itself. Rather I'd suggest that the 'flesh' here is that which is in the likeness of sin in the intellect (or mind) does the flesh siin, it's worldly. The body (flesh) is moved by the intellect and the soul, having no means to move itself, it cannot be held to the Law.

Look at verse 8 above. The natural mind would say that anyone living on Earth cannot please the Lord because they live in a body of flesh.

Here is where we differ. First this is indicative of holding the Lutheran doctrine of the 'depravity' of man. That is to say, man cannot be holy; that he is so depraved that even his 'good' is sin. I put this syllogism in the 'bunk' category. Second, that's not what's being said here at all, because in verse 4 we see the righteousness of the law for those who do not walk "as if after the flesh". The converse is also true, that the “law is fulfilled in us that walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” In short, being a living breathing human is not a sin in and of itself. (Cf. St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans, Homily 13). Thirdly, as clarification, the flesh discussed here is not the Flesh of Christ in John 6. The 'Flesh' referred to in John 6 is the 'meat'. That is the body soul and Divinity, the essence of Christ. It's referred to as the Real Presence of Christ.

That idea is totally wrong, because "flesh" has to be understood as not having any spiritual life, and that life is Jesus Christ living in the believer through the Holy Ghost.

The obvious mistake in this statement is that Christ is another form of the Holy Spirit. Christ is not simply another form of the Holy Spirit, they are not the same Person. The man Christ had two natures, one of man, one of Christ that is God. The Holy Spirit has one nature, that of the Holy Spirit, different from God and Christ.

Flesh does have a spiritual capacity in the sense that our final state in heaven is that of men, body and soul. Man is not complete without the soul nor is the soul complete man without the body. It's the soul that moves the body through the intellect. The essence of man is body and soul.

What is meant in these verses is “sin no longer wars against the law of our mind, neither does it lead us away captive as heretofore, for all that state has been ended and broken up, and the affections cower in fear and trembling at the grace of the Spirit “(ibid.) Paul says, “But they that are in the flesh cannot please God,” and continues, “But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit.” This is the same sense as is being said in John 15:19, “If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you” Once we turn toward spiritually, we are no longer following after the worldly, and Christ is in us – see vs. 10


JoeT

[arcura]

JoeT,
Yes, Jesus Christ IS a separate divine being from God the Holy Spirit and God The Father, but those three beings are the makeup of the one true triune God
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

Nonsense, flesh is meat – you're getting nowhere solo.

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Ok, am I supposed to get mad? Or what kind of reaction are you looking for here? I do a great impression of a mad Italian scientist.

Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

How do you know, not knowing what Moses wrote of ; remember what Christ said, “If you did believe Moses, you would perhaps believe me also: for he wrote of me”

JoeT.

The Words Commanded by The Lord, that Moses Wrote as a Song. Words that are to be taught today, and words that will be sung by God's children who will go through the gates of heaven (Deu 31:19 Deu 32:46)(Revel 15:2-3)

The Song of Moses (Deu 32:1-46)

Deu 32:1-3 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

Deu 32:29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!

Deu 32:31 is true today in denominations even as it was then, as the Pharisees were the enemy and judges over the people. Teaching in God's name, the doctrine of man. (Luke 12:1) (Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. )

Deu 32:31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.

~in Christ the unleavened bread of Passover

(not of man's doctrine raised and fed with leaven)

[JoeT777]

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.


The Words Commanded by The Lord, that Moses Wrote as a Song. Words that are to be taught today, and words that will be sung by God's children who will go through the gates of heaven (Deu 31:19 Deu 32:46)(Revel 15:2-3)

The Song of Moses (Deu 32:1-46)

Deu 32:1-3 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

Deu 32:29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!

Deu 32:31 is true today in denominations even as it was then, as the Pharisees were the enemy and judges over the people. Teaching in God's name, the doctrine of man. (Luke 12:1) (Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. )

Deu 32:31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.

~in Christ the unleavened bread of Passover

(not of man's doctrine raised and fed with leaven)

So, if you hear those words of Moses, then you understand these;

"you shall be my peculiar possession above all people: for all the earth is mine. And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation... Moses came; and calling together the elders of the people, he declared all the words which the Lord had commanded." Ex 19

This is 'Church'. When was this repealed? Does this 'Kingdom' still exist? Is there a statement in scripture that transfers power to the 'New Kingdom'?

JoeT

[sndbay]

So, if you hear those words of Moses, then you understand these;

"you shall be my peculiar possession above all people: for all the earth is mine. And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation... Moses came; and calling together the elders of the people, he declared all the words which the Lord had commanded." Ex 19

This is 'Church'. When was this repealed? Does this 'Kingdom' still exist? Is there a statement in scripture that transfers power to the 'New Kingdom'?

JoeT

Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Note the importance of obeying the Lord's voice! The very same meaning is found in the NT, Jesus said "My sheep Hear MY Voice" . Only then shall ye be a preculiar treasure unto me. The people that obey and hear the voice of OUR LORD are above all people known as the children of God.

Ex 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

A Kingdom of priests, priests of Jehovah. Hearing the Word of God and follow HIS Word(Christ). Again Joe those that follow Christ walk having the spirit, acknowledging the skill in righteousness(strong meat)

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

You Joe, told me the Catholic article released which you agreed was true reported that the members of the Catholic denomination were sinners. They walk in sin, which means they walk in darkness. Until they put on the new man as (Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness) by their own admission they remain as babes in need of milk, and easily beguiled by satan.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in HIM sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen HIM, neither known HIM.


1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


walk having the spirit~in Christ

[galveston]

It wasn't Luther, it was Paul that wrote:

Rom 7:18
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
(KJV)

Without the new birth that Jesus taught Nicodemus about, we have NO righteousness.


Isa 64:6
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
(KJV)

The unsaved person CANNOT keep the Law. The first commandment is to love God without reservation, an a sinner can't do that and therefore has broken the whole Law.

True that the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ are not the same person.
However, the Holy Spirit is the only member of the Godhead that we have contact with in this dispensation, and He is one (in perfect unity) with the Father and the Son.

It is the will of the Father that every believer be filled with the Holy Spirit.

And every believer (not every human being) is predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.

You still are not answering what you personally know about the Holy Spirit baptism.

[JoeT777]

Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Note the importance of obeying the Lord's voice! The very same meaning is found in the NT, Jesus said "My sheep Hear MY Voice" . Only then shall ye be a preculiar treasure unto me. The people that obey and hear the voice of OUR LORD are above all people known as the children of God.

Ex 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Yes, there is an importance to 'obey'. Which means what?

A Kingdom of priests, priests of Jehovah. Hearing the Word of God and follow HIS Word(Christ). Again Joe those that follow Christ walk having the spirit, acknowledging the skill in righteousness(strong meat)

And that JoeT fails, or sins mean that the Kingdom falls? God's Kingdom doesn't sound very strong that it fails because of its weakest link. Where is that great solo mind that can show me where Holy Scripture says the Kingdom failed or has fallen? JoeT rhymes with St. Thomas show me.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Do I take this to mean that you individually are the Kingdom of God? Or are a member of the Catholic Church?

You Joe, told me the Catholic article released which you agreed was true reported that the members of the Catholic denomination were sinners. They walk in sin, which means they walk in darkness. Until they put on the new man as (Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness) by their own admission they remain as babes in need of milk, and easily beguiled by satan.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in HIM sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen HIM, neither known HIM.


1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


walk having the spirit~in Christ

Answer this. If we can't find in Scripture that the Kingdom of God has been disbanded, where did it go? Are you the Kingdom of God?


What happens if Christ disbands the Old Testament and the Kingdom of God? Now Christ can't be the fulfillment of the Old Covenant, it doesn't exist?


To my way of thinking the Catholicism is keeping the faith with Christ. We understand God's Word to be immutable. Consequently, when God promises Moses a Kingdom we shouldn't dismiss it out of hand because it's Old Testament and the law doesn't apply to the New Covenant. Moses is told, “If therefore you will hear my voice, and keep my covenant, you shall be my peculiar possession above all people: for all the earth is mine. And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation.” (Ex.19: 5, 6), which is the Old Testament equivalent of Matt 16:18. The promise made to Moses is an integral part of the Old Testament. The Jewish Kingdom was both a spiritual and temporal Kingdom with a priestly heresiarch; the Jews were to be governed by their priests.

Christ didn't overturn this Kingdom by creating a new one; in fact He couldn't because His ministry was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant, which included the Messianic Kingdom along with the prophecies for a new King. To overthrow this Kingdom would have been to over throw himself – which of course is nonsense. However what Christ was to do was to turn over the 'Key' of the Kingdom to a new tenant, what is today and the gentile Kingdom we call the Roman Catholic Church. Which is the reason that in Matthew, we hear Christ say, “I say to you [the Pharisees] that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and shall be given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof.” This too is a pronouncement of on Mt. Sinai. It's here we see Christ conquering the world in the Messianic vision of David; but instead of “nation building” it is “Church” building.

JoeT

[sndbay]

Yes, there is an importance to 'obey'. Which means what?

Answer the calling.. Follow Christ, HEAR HIS VOICE

And that JoeT fails, or sins mean that the Kingdom falls? God's Kingdom doesn't sound very strong that it fails because of its weakest link. Where is that great solo mind that can show me where Holy Scripture says the Kingdom failed or has fallen? JoeT rhymes with St. Thomas show me.

Sin means people failed, beguiled by satan. It means they have free will to answer the calling, and follow or they fail. They are accountable to reap what they sow.

Those that follow Christ do not fail, they do not sin because they are sanctiified in Christ with the Holy Spirit. The new man which walks in righteousness and holiness.

Do I take this to mean that you individually are the Kingdom of God? Or are a member of the Catholic Church?

Christ dwells within me, and I walk to follow HIM. It is not an organizational structure, it is spiritual awareness of a heavenly place in Christ. He never leaves me or forsakes me.

Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus

Eph 3:9-10-11 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the [U]principalities and powers in heavenly places {{{might be known}}} by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

[JoeT777]

Answer the calling.. Follow Christ, HEAR HIS VOICE


Sin means people failed, beguiled by satan. It means they have free will to answer the calling, and follow or they fail. They are accountable to reap what they sow.

Then the devil made me do it? Why am I promised discipline for failing when the devil did it?

Those that follow Christ do not fail, they do not sin because they are sanctiified in Christ with the Holy Spirit. The new man which walks in righteousness and holiness.

Really, what happened to Judas?

Christ dwells within me, and I walk to follow HIM. It is not an organizational structure, it is spiritual awareness of a heavenly place in Christ. He never leaves me or forsakes me.

Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus

Eph 3:9-10-11 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the [U]principalities and powers in heavenly places {{{might be known}}} by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

So, I guess the answer is yes, you hold yourself to be the Kingdom of God? Interesting.


JoeT

[galveston]

Interesting!

Joe contends that the Word of God is immutable (look up the meaning) and then says that the word of a man (the Pope) can alter or supercede it.

Which is it?