[paraclete]

I know it is old news now but I find it interesting that Haiti hasn't rated a mention here Could that be that it is offshore to some insignificant little nation

[tickle]

No, we are well aware of it here in Canada. I read about Haiti every day in the Toronto Star. I don't know why we are not discussing here, but now that you brought it up, I am sure there will be a zstumai (sp).

I prefer not to talk of it here. Orphans have already landed at Lester B. Pearson International Airport in MIssissauga, Ontario, and have been adopted. More refugees are coming to live at Trenton air force (Ontario) base in old barracks being removated for their needs.

They have always been a very depressed situation, whatever aid anyone has ever given them has gone to naught, I just hope that this time, any aid money will go to improving their conditions, but if you have ever been to Haiti as I have, you will know that it is impossible in such a tiny spot.

I went down there with Red Cross years ago, it was impossible. Delivering babies in such lousy conditions, trying to drag them out of poverty. It was impossible.


Tick

[tomder55]

I have been preparing at posting but always get sidetracked.

4 basic themes
1. Haiti remains impoverished BECAUSE of the foreign aid it receives
2. The US military is the only institution in the world capable of providing the logistics necessary for such a huge relief effort and I'm tired of the trashing we are getting from friend and enemy alike.
3 . The fundraising concert by the celebrities was the single most decent thing I've ever seen coming out of Hollywood. Too bad most of the money will be skimmed
4.I have credible evidence that Clintoon's management of the nation in the 1990s was one of the most corrupt ventures ever ;equal in scope (when comparing resourses involved ) to the Oil for Food swindles.

I have been trying to find the time to tie them all together .But I may have to go it one by one .

If you want to add another one ;given the amt of aid the nation receives ;the leaders should be brought up on criminal charges for allowing shoddy construction outside of any reasonable safe code for an earthquake area,

[tickle]

I

2. The US military is the only institution in the world capable of providing the logistics necessary for such a huge relief effort and I'm tired of the trashing we are getting from friend and enemy alike.

,

You always have a good choice of words. Then, you don't think the relief effort made by Canada, or anyone else is worth the effort. Weren't we all there for Haiti when the time arose? I think you should take back this statement, tomder. The fact remains, that every carton of water, every case of food remained on the tarmac for weeks. And where were your troops paving the way for all of this water and food distribution with earth moving equipment. I think US was there first because of proximity, so why was it not done immediately?

Your derogatory comment, makes me sick.

Tick

[tickle]

Canada prepares to host Haiti recovery meeting
By KATHLEEN HARRIS, Parliamentary Bureau, QMI Agency


Canada welcomes Haitian orphans

Haitian orphans arrive in Ottawa

Canadian death toll in Haiti rises to 19

Body of former Canadian MP found in Haiti

Canadians text generous sums for Haiti


OTTAWA — Canada is preparing to welcome foreign ministers from around the globe Monday who will plot a path forward for earthquake-ravaged Haiti.

Foreign Minister Lawrence Cannon said the gathering of nations will not be a "pledging conference" but an initial, critical step forward on the long road to Haiti's recovery.

"Together with the government of Haiti, we need to roll up our sleeves and begin to lay the groundwork for the enormous task ahead," Cannon said during a briefing with reporters Sunday. "My objectives for this meeting are simple but necessary: We need to arrive at a common understanding and commitment on certain basic principles of responsibility, accountability and long-term engagement."

Fourteen countries, including the U.S. France, Japan and Mexico, will participate in the conference along with international financial institutions and non-government organizations such as the Red Cross, Oxfam and Care Canada. Cannon hopes participants will define a "road map" for long-term tasks that lie ahead.

Cannon said the focus of the government is also on repatriating the remains of Canadian victims of the earthquake since the Government of Haiti declared the search and rescue phase over Saturday. He said the government is working through a number of "complex logistical issues" related to identification and proper documentation of individuals.

To date, 19 Canadians are confirmed dead and 216 are still missing after the Jan. 12 earthquake.

Immigration Minister Jason Kenney was in Ottawa to help welcome the first wave of Haitian orphans to Canada, and said it must have been like going to "another planet" from the Caribbean to Canadian winter.

Wrapped in blankets, some children were still wearing shorts.

Kenney said inquiries have been flooding in from compassionate Canadians who want to help by adopting orphans, but he insisted authorities must try to find the parents or relatives of the children before giving them to foreign adoptive families. Citing reports of child-trafficking from the disaster zone, Kenney said the government will not install any "corner-cutting" measures that could facilitate the illicit handling of children.

"There is not going to be any fast-tracking of adoptions for post-earthquake out of Haiti," he told CTV's Question Period. "We're going to have to organize this properly to make sure the interests of all of the children come first."

Kenney also rejected opposition demands to extend the definition of family to bring more Haitian victims to Canada, calling it "not responsible" to craft immigration policy on the fly.

The government will also take extra precautions to ensure would-be immigrants are properly assessed for criminality and proper health even though Haiti's justice and medical records systems have been wiped out.

"We're going have to use due diligence and what we call risk management to assess people who are applying to come to Canada," he said

I guess we, as Canadians, aren't doing enough, tomder.

Tick

[Wondergirl]

Haiti remains impoverished BECAUSE of the foreign aid it receives

Haiti remains impoverished because of WHO TAKES CONTROL OF the foreign aid it receives.(You made that point later, tomder.)

[tomder55]

I think you should take back this statement, tomder.

Canada prepares to host Haiti recovery meeting

I will not recant because I said nothing derogatory about Canada's efforts although hosting a conference 2 weeks after the quake is not what I would call overly impressive .The truth is that the US military, because of the size of the logistical support it provides ,should be coordinating the effort.

"Our nation has a unique capacity to reach out quickly and broadly and to deliver assistance that can save lives," President Obama said.And he is 100 % correct.Again ;that does not disparage any other nation's efforts .It is just the truth.Within hours of the quake the US blue water navy was steaming towards the country.

You talk of goods sitting at the airport. But the only reason the airport became usable was because air traffic was being directed from a US Coast Guard cutter. The only reason it operates today is because Airforce special ops got their to coordinate the airport activities.

Airdropping cases of water is insufficient as welcome as it is .But

U.S. warships have the capability to generate 400,000 gallons daily of fresh water from desalination plants on the ships .

And it is the US Navy sending divers into the harbor so the most important work of clearing and repairing the port can begin so sufficient aid can finally be delivered.

Sorry if I offend with the truth ;but where is the Canadian blue water fleet ?

[tomder55]

Haiti remains impoverished because of WHO TAKES CONTROL OF the foreign aid it receives.

Correct .That is why I added the comments about the Clintoon cronies.

[Wondergirl]

Correct .That is why I added the comments about the Clintoon cronies.

Yup, you did. I just wanted to point out the inconsistency at the start.

(Is that the Hudson behind you in your avatar?)

[tomder55]

No, the picture was taken at the rotating restaurant on top of the Space Needle . I spent the day in Seattle before departing on an Alaska cruise.

I have been checking out the Clinton story for a couple days .Mary Anastasia O'Grady at WSJ reported last week on the close and corrupt dealings with Jean Bertrand Aristide that the Clintoon cronies had through a telecommunication firm called Teleco and Fusion Telecommunications .

[paraclete]

I have been preparing at posting but always get sidetracked.

4 basic themes
1. Haiti remains impoverished BECAUSE of the foreign aid it receives
2. The US military is the only institution in the world capable of providing the logistics necessary for such a huge relief effort and I'm tired of the trashing we are getting from friend and enemy alike.
3 . The fundraising concert by the celebrities was the single most decent thing I've ever seen coming out of Hollywood. Too bad most of the money will be skimmed
4.I have credible evidence that Clintoon's management of the nation in the 1990s was one of the most corrupt ventures ever ;equal in scope (when comparing resourses involved ) to the Oil for Food swindles.

I have been trying to find the time to tie them all together .But I may have to go it one by one .

if you want to add another one ;given the amt of aid the nation receives ;the leaders should be brought up on criminal charges for allowing shoddy construction outside of any reasonable safe code for an earthquake area,

Well thanks for the somewhat irrelevant response. This wasn't an opportunity for you to voice your pet hates but to add something positive.

I find it interesting that someone could survive 15 days before being rescued and that John travolta could be allowed to jump the queue to bring in relief supplies. I don't doubt the US is doing what they can just as others are but in these things there is always a mismatch between the amount of available aid and the ability to deliver it. Logistics is an art that few possess

Tom have you ever been in a third world country, let alone a failed nation like Haiti? Realistically there is no building code, I took a video tour the other day and what I saw was no different to what you would see anywhere in the middle east, Asia or Africa. Buildings get built with what is available and what can be afforded. If you enforced a building code nothing would be done or you would introduce another opportunity for corruption. Now we have Clinton calling for Haiti to be rebuilt to lift the Haitians out of poverty. That means more jobs exported or legislating to move manufacturing from China, Mexico or some othere needy place. He wasn't worried about lifting the Haitians out of poverty when he was in office

I agree with you that handouts don't solve the problem of poverty, but the problem to be solved right now is housing, water, food and medicine. That requires a massive building program and if it were handled properly and not for profit the Haitians would get a fair share of the jobs created but you will see a flood of US contractors and the locals will get nothing but fleeced. Those leaders you want to prosecute were doing what they could, but look at the Presidential Palace, which fell down by the way, a relic of the French Colonial era, would you like to sue the French for their shoddy workmanship in a earthquake prown area or congratulate them that the building lasted so long.

The Haitian people made the break for freedom and paid the price and are still paying. If they had remained a French colony they would be rich today and probably have earthquake proof buildings

You think aid to Haiti has been large but $23 per person doesn't go very farhttp://www.napawash.org/haiti_final.pdf

[tomder55]

You said a lot so I will reply piecemeal

You think aid to Haiti has been large but $23 per person doesn't go very far

And yet the US has shelled out $4 billion in aid to Haiti .That proves my point.
I neither said that the aid to Haiti has been large or sufficient . What I said is that it is largely wasted and mostly counterproductive.
I agree with you that immediate disaster and humanity relief is imperitive ;but anything beyond that will most likey lead to greater poverty ,less institutional capacity,a greater dependence on both the international community ,and the corrupt officials the aid is filtered through .

This 2006 report by the National Academy of Public Administration, titled "Why Foreign Aid to Haiti Failed" is a useful read to understand the failure of the aid regimes .
http://www.napawash.org/haiti_final.pdf
Here is their assessment of the World Bank's efforts.

"The outcome of World Bank assistance programs is rated unsatisfactory (if not highly so), the institutional development impact, negligible, and the sustainability of the few benefits that have accrued, unlikely."

"Haiti has dysfunctional budgetary, financial or procurement systems, making financial and aid management impossible."... "the government did not exhibit ownership by taking the initiative for formulating and implementing [its] assistance program." ...(there was a ) "total mismatch between levels of foreign aid and government capacity to absorb it,

The conclusion is that the more foreign donors spent on Haiti, the more the funds went astray.A precursor to effective foreign aid is a more professional,less corrupt, bureaucracy, and eventually decentralization and privatization of the economy.

You are right that once the immediate disaster relief has passed then it best to treating them as people capable of making responsible choices. But where you are wrong is that once this has passed ;it would be better to shift money going into the country from direct aid with no accontability ;to foreign investment .

Tom have you ever been in a third world country, let alone a failed nation like Haiti? Realistically there is no building code, I took a video tour the other day and what I saw was no different to what you would see anywhere in the middle east, Asia or Africa. Buildings get built with what is available and what can be afforded. If you enforced a building code nothing would be done or you would introduce another opportunity for corruption.

You can make excuses for negligent leadership in the nation all you want to ;I don't give them a pass. Building code that would've reduced this disaster could've and should've been the law .It only adds at most 1-2% of the construction cost. As we have seen in this and other similar disasters ;earthquakes don't kill people ,buildings do.
(and yes I traveled and lived briefly in a 3rd world country in my younger days... Iran)

[tomder55]

This wasn't an opportunity for you to voice your pet hates but to add something positive

Interesting statement in light of the OP

know it is old news now but I find it interesting that Haiti hasn't rated a mention here Could that be that it is offshore to some insignificant little nation

Could you be projection your own "hate" in the snide and sarcastic editorial comment ?

[tomder55]

now we have Clinton calling for Haiti to be rebuilt to lift the Haitians out of poverty. That means more jobs exported or legislating to move manufacturing from China, Mexico or some othere needy place. He wasn't worried about lifting the Haitians out of poverty when he was in office

Correct . If the President knew or cared about the corruption that went on when Clintoon intervened in the nation he would not have in good conscious made him a lead person in the US effort. Doubling the disgrace was the fact that Clintoon used US military might to restore the despot Jean-Bertrand Aristide back to power after a coup ousted him.

[Wondergirl]

Correct . If the President knew or cared about the corruption that went on when Clintoon intervened in the nation he would not have in good conscious made him a lead person in the US effort.

Okay. Lots of mistakes have been made regarding Haiti and greed has ruled the day. What would actually WORK for that country presently and, even more important, later?

[HistorianChick]

Personally, I have wondered why we haven't had this type of reaction to other natural disasters across the world. Why didn't we have fundraisers and such for China in 2008 when 90,000 people (of which, 5,300 were school children) died in the earthquake?

Someone told me that we tried to help China and they refused - I normally stay out of politics because I don't like to be yelled at, nor do I like to yell, but this seems dreadfully inconsistent to me.

I lived in China for 2 years - I know what living in a country like that is... I love the people; maybe that is why I have this constant dislike in my mouth when I hear of another Hollywood starlet going to Haiti.

I'm glad we're helping and adopting the children from this tragic disaster; I just wish we would have been doing it all along.

[tomder55]

We offered, and China accepted aid . It was Mayanmar that refused our help.
After earthquake, China welcomes U.S. military / The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com

Myanmar government refuses U.S. aid

[tomder55]

Wondergirl I largely answered that question in my response to Clete and the suggestions of the report by the National Academy of Public Administration.
You understate the corruption and waste involved here . So far between the World Bank;US direct funding ;donations by private Americans ,and the $50 something million raised by the concert ,and not including the donations from other nations ;$400 million has been raised for immediate relief. All told about 10% of Haiti's total GDP has been raised for earthquake relief.

But the World Bank reported that virtually all its projects in Haiti in the past fifteen years failed because of ineffective and corrupt government. "The Bank and other donors erred by offering traditional assistance programs without identifying the fundamental governance and political barriers to development." http://www.napawash.org/haiti_final.pdf
(same link I posted above)
Unfortunately aid to Haiti beyond the small pecentage that will actually make it to the people is like ,as one congressman used to say,"taking money from the poor folks in the rich countries and giving it to rich folks in the poor countries."

It does put us into a bit of dilemna because the only way to ensure the sovereign will of the people is through the very types of interventions that people find so distasteful. Yes; like it or not ,the answer for Haiti is nation building . (and no I am not talking unilateral US response )Security will need to be maintained if the sovereign will of the people ever has a chance to bear fruit.And once the immediacy of the crisis passes direct aid has to give way to foreign investment... investment that will not happen until stability is achieved .

[cdad]

You think aid to Haiti has been large but $23 per person doesn't go very farhttp://www.napawash.org/haiti_final.pdf

I think $23 per person goes pretty far when its stacked against the facts. It seems that's at least a months worth of wages according to some places.
Ref:
Impoverished Haiti Suffers 7.0 Earthquake

So how can that be seen as not going very far ? That is just from one coutry giving them aid. Are the nations of the world just suppose to give a years worth of wages ? Where should it stop? Is it sad people have to live like that.. yes. But as far as right now there biggest problem (distribution) is being hampered by their own countrymen. There is no end to it even in tragidy. They need to wake up and start learning to do for themselves after the dust settles and clean up their own cesspool.

[paraclete]

I think $23 per person goes pretty far when its stacked against the facts. It seems thats atleast a months worth of wages according to some places.
.

Really perhaps you would like to live on $23 a month?