[excon]

Hello again, J:

Ok, you convinced me. I'm going to church tomorrow.

excon

[cdad]

Hello again, J:

Ok, you convinced me. I'm goin to church tomorrow.

excon

I know it was cold. I didn't know it was THAT cold ( wink ).. lol

[Tokugawa]

One should be wary of religion. Each one is nihilistic, and views life with contempt. Consider "Christianity", which for the most part manifests itself as an appeal to immortality, and completely overlooks the true profundity of life. It offers fairy stories instead.

If you are to know anything, know this. Kant showed us that if we are to experience something, we must experience it in time. It is impossible to have experienced something, without a time during which you have experienced it. Time is dependent on change. The only way we experience change, is through time. In a state of immortality time would be meaningless, as a fraction of infinity is also infinite. Much as we know that space is finite, so must time be also.

You must die one day, otherwise you could not have lived, and when you reach the age of 30 (like me), you will see no difference in the instant that brought you there, and the instant that brings you to where you are now.

[excon]

Hello again, T:

Ok, you convinced me. I'm not going to church today.

excon

[Tokugawa]

I'll thank you to keep your Stalinist rantings to yourself. "I'm not going to church today"... STALINIST!

[TUT317]

One should be wary of religion. each one is nihilistic, and views life with contempt. Consider "Christianity", which for the most part manifests itself as an appeal to immortality, and completely overlooks the true profundity of life. It offers fairy stories instead.

If you are to know anything, know this. Kant showed us that if we are to experience something, we must experience it in time. It is impossible to have experienced something, without a time during which you have experienced it. Time is dependent on change. The only way we experience change, is through time. In a state of immortality time would be meaningless, as a fraction of infinity is also infinite. Much as we know that space is finite, so must time be also.

You must die one day, otherwise you could not have lived, and when you reach the age of 30 (like me), you will see no difference in the instant that brought you there, and the instant that brings you to where you are now.

Hello Tokugawa,

I can't agree with your first paragraph. Religion offers us hope for something better after this life. Anyway, it does for me.

What you say about Kant is correct. There is no doubt that his arguments are profound and casts doubt on most metaphysical arguments.

As you say, the problem which prevents us from developing any sort of knowledge beyond what we know about this world is the inability of our mental capacities to go beyond experience. When we try to build a bridge from what we know about this world to the metaphysical world we run into all sorts of problems. This is why we have some much disagreement when it comes to religion. People put forward their ideas about God based on what they understand. And what we all understand happens in time and space.

However, there are some other important points.

Firstly, Kant is not saying that this world is the only world. He is saying that we can't know much about the next world.

Secondly, Kant was a religious man so he wasn't going to leave it there. He develop the idea that God must exist through morality.

Thirdly, Kant inadvertently came up with a very good first cause argument.

[Tokugawa]

Hello TUT,
I respect your observations and comments, and I often "lurk" here to see if you have written.
I do not recall Kant referring to "other worlds", although I am sure he must have contemplated them, much like Wittgenstein.

How could we express such a world? A world with no logic? No time or space? We cannot expereince it!

As far as I know, Kant was not explicitly religious. Myself, I am agnostic, bordering on deist, as I would have a hard time explaining existence without God.

The Bible is a fount of wisdom for those who know how to read it. It is a poetic history that has been corrupted by zealots, and if read properly, offers far more than those great men of Greece.

Fools of today read it word for word, not realizing how the ancients spoke. The laughable claims of "Christianity" can be expained by such folly alone.

For all this, I believe that Jesus lived as a man, and no more. A remarkable man who had no idea that he would alter the course of the planet, and I battle the church at every occasion on this issue.

ALL religion is nihilistic. "To the afterlife" they command, never ceasing, even for a moment to consider the greatness of LIFE in itself. The kingdom of heaven is AT HAND! It is HERE! It is called LIFE!

Feeble nay-sayers who despise their life, long for death (heaven). These we call "christians", although they have about as much in common with Christ as a pneapple has with a bicycle pump. They are acually followers of Paul.

[TUT317]

Hello Tokugawa,

Yes, you are correct Kant does not make any reference to, 'other worlds'. It is now obvious that if I said Kant makes the distinction between phenomenal and noumenal you would know what I am talking about.

In trying to make philosophy understandable to everyone (not everyone has studied philosophy) I tend to corrupt the intended meaning. There is a massive amount of things I don't understand and I am sure that many people would be thinking, "what is the best way to get Tut to understand this?"

What you say about Kant as a religious person may also be correct.
There is a story that Kant's faithful servant, who was a deeply religious man was in a depressed state upon the realization of what Kant had written. Kant then realized he need to make amends. Possibly an apocryphal story.

[Tokugawa]

To the young man who started this thread, life is beautiful. It abounds with great joy, great sorrow, great absurdity.

The thing is, I cannot tell you about life. I live my life, you live yours.

For advise, I would recommend against the ludicrous teachings of the mainstream American Church. Those fools who promise eternal happiness WHEN YOU DIE, in exchange for mindless obidience.

There are many beautiful possibilties, then again, perhaps we should not underestimate G-d.

To TUT-

What matters Kant's servant? Did he write a book that changed my life?

Yes, we resevrve the right to the thing in itself, for otherwise it would be an appearance, without that which appears. The world is made up of facts, not things.

The sum of all facts is the world. Facts exist in logical space... (etc Tractatus)

[N0help4u]

You want something more than 'religion' something deeper. Look to God for more spiritual than ritual.

[Tokugawa]

What matters Kant's servant? Did he write a book that changed my life?

Sorry if this seems harsh, I do in fact appreciate your posts. I feel very passionately about the questions asked by religion. I also feel that religion fails us in many ways. We Philosophers are put on the sidelines by priests and scientists alike, perhaps this is the best place for us! From here we can view the laughable artistry of the former, and the deadly inanity of the latter.

"Vanity of vanities, all is vanity," Thus saith the King, the teacher in Jeruselum.

[NeedKarma]

I somewhat agree with Toku here. To the OP: many do not need a bible to live their lives and you may be one of them. Believe in yourself.

[Tokugawa]

Nietzsche on Christ-

"What the 'glad tidings' tell us is simply that there are no more contradictions; the kingdom of heaven belongs to children; the faith that is voiced here is no more an embattled faith, it is at hand, it has been from the beginning, it is a sort of recrudescent childishness of the spirit. A faith of this sort is not furious, it does not denounce, it does not defend itself, it does not come with 'the sword'. It does not realize how it will one day set man against man. It does not manifest either by miracles or by rewards or by promises or 'scriptures': it is itself, first and last, it's own miracle, it's own reward, it's own 'kingdom of god'. It does not formulate itself, it simply lives, and thereby guards against formula".

[galveston]

Nietzsche notwithstanding, the apostle Paul had this to say.

1 Cor 2:4-5
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
(KJV)

So you see that neither priest nor philosopher had anything to do with establishing Christianity. It was established by Jesus Christ and spread by men full of the Holy Ghost who went about doing the same works that Jesus did.