[speechlesstx]

Yup it's a great system you guys have: Heavy infant in Grand Junction denied health insurance - The Denver Post
I'm so glad I live where I do and I can help my fellow citizen.

Praise be to the martyr. :rolleyes:

[tomder55]

The demoralized victims of more than fifty years of central planning and empty promises came together last week in Michigan. In a scene reminiscent of Soviet style bread lines, more than 65000 people filled out applications, hoping for a share of 15.2 million dollars appropriated by the Obama stimulus package to help low income families pay bills, stave off eviction or find temporary housing. Only 3500 people will actually receive aid from the program.

The Associated Press: Thousands mob Detroit center in hopes of free cash

This latest incarnation of the Obama recovery act only adds to the evidence that the stimulus was never about job creation, Instead it was merely a tool for the expansion of political power through the welfare state.
The long slow-moving lines and ill-prepared city welfare workers agitated the desperate citizens who began to trample and fight one another for a shot at the limited number of applications. This is the result of Obama's redistributionist economic policy. Sold under the guise of compassion, social justice, economic justice, egalitarianism, the individual is reduced to a budget item, who views his fellow man as a threat, competition for his slice of an ever shrinking communal pie.


Redistributionist or socialist policy, call it what you will, can never produce the economic or social equality that those who champion it promise. In fact such a political and economic system only advances the creation of an inescapable class system they claim to oppose. It advocates the notion that the bureaucrat is more equal than equal. The bureaucrat in the welfare state is given the arbitrary authority over the validity of what he views as the needs of the citizen in relation to the immediate needs of the state. In the end redistributionist policy only advances the ultimate immorality, slavery, first by enslaving the producer to the non-producer, then though dependence the non-producer to the state.

American Thinker Blog: Obama's Real Vision of Change


Who do you trust ? Hubba hubba!!

[speechlesstx]

American Thinker Blog: Obama's Real Vision of Change


Who do you trust ? hubba hubba !!!

Did you hear the audio on this? If I can find it I'll post it, but these people came to get them some "Obama money." When asked they had no idea where "Obama money" comes from.

[NeedKarma]

Did you hear the audio on this? If I can find it I'll post it, but these people came to get them some "Obama money." When asked they had no idea where "Obama money" comes from.

Idiots are not in shortage. LOL!

[speechlesstx]

Come get your "Obama money"

[excon]

Who do you trust ? hubba hubba !!!

Hello again, tom:

Your post, yet again, confirms MY suspicion that your opposition to health care reform has NOTHING to do with health care reform, and EVERYTHING to do with defeating Obama at every turn. This due to your wacko belief that health care reform, or anything he does for that matter, is the first step in a communist takeover...

You and the Wolverine are sharing the tin hat.

excon

[NeedKarma]

Your post, yet again, confirms MY suspicion that your opposition to health care reform has NOTHING to do with health care reform, and EVERYTHING to do with defeating Obama at every turn. This due to your wacko belief that health care reform, or anything he does for that matter, is the first step in a communist takeover...

You and the Wolverine are sharing the tin hat.

Your suspicion is correct.

NK,
Posting from Communist Canada

[tomder55]

Ex
I would be opposed to socialist solutions to health care reform no matter who the President was.

Why did you not comment on my charge that if you truly only wanted health care reform that you have ignored the most logical 1st step... removing anti-trust exemptions that the insurance companies have ?
You have been very clear that your interest is not reform but a goal of single payer universal coverage as some convoluted " self evident right ".
You have admitted that you consider "reform " as an incremental step in that goal.
I also see the result to gradual fabianism and will never support it.

[ETWolverine]

I'm suprised the left hasn't proposed the most obvious reform ......ending the anti-trust exemptions the insurance companies have .

One would think that would be an obvious 1st step if the goal was insurance reform.

But let's not kid ourselves. Ex just argued that all they are looking for is reform when in fact they see these reforms as a stepping stone to a complete overhaul of the health care system with the end being universal single payer . Every Democrat legislator in secret or openly has admitted that .

You've been listening to Mark Simone, haven't you...

Good point.

[tomder55]

Yup it's a great system you guys have: Heavy infant in Grand Junction denied health insurance - The Denver Post
I'm so glad I live where I do and I can help my fellow citizen.

Bet your thrilled then you don't live in UK

Daughter saves mother, 80, left by doctors to starve - Times Online

[ETWolverine]

Halfpennies worth from the otherside of the lake.

It is something than most of us take for granted in England, a free health scheme.

Everytime we broke a bone as a kid, or got sick, the hospital, doctors and nurses were all standing there waiting to help you

Dont get me wrong, sure the system is flawed, it is run by humans after all, so mistakes will happen.

But the basic right of a country that respects its people is to make sure they are cared for in some capacity

Private medical insurance can still be taken out on top of it, if you so choose

It beggars belief that a nation as powerful as America is, it doesnt have a mechanism in place that will assist the poor and misfortunate

Would anyone here not come to the aid of another human being if they could be saved, hopefully not

Would they dip their hands in there wallets and pay a few bucks, by the sounds of things yes

I can't see what the difference is.

Taxes are put into a big pot, so everyone can receive the benefits of a basic system

I am sure nobody here has built a road so they can travel to work on it, of course not, it is expected that their taxes pay for an infrastructure so everyone can enjoy the benefits

And I appreciate this may be a bit controversial, but surely the assitance of someone who has found themselves in difficulty through what ever means cannot be denied the help just because someone doesnt think the way they lead their lives is worthy of such

phlanx,

Here is your universal health care system.

Daughter saves mother, 80, left by doctors to starve - Times Online

Sentenced to death on the NHS - Telegraph

Number of children going to hospital to have teeth pulled soars by 66% since 1997 | Mail Online

Kidney cancer patients denied life-saving drugs by NHS rationing body NICE | Mail Online

Culture of targets prevents nurses from tending to patients - Telegraph

BBC NEWS | Health | NHS charges to rise in England

Only five out of 51 hospital trusts pass hygiene test, say inspectors | Society | The Guardian

If that's what we are to expect from government-run universal health care, no thanks.

And by the way, your health care isn't FREE as you say in your first sentence. You are paying very high taxes to keep your broken system running. But because you don't pay at the point of service, you have gotten into the habbit of THINKING that health care is free in the UK. It isn't.

Elliot

[speechlesstx]

That's even worse than this guy's predicament...

Plumber with shattered arm left horrifically bent out of shape has operation 'cancelled four times'

[phlanx]

Wolverine - Death and Taxes mate!

I don't pay the builder to make the roads I drive down either, but I still don't get charged for doing so

Taxes are a certainty mate, or don't you appreciate that simple truth?

The NHS is paid for through National Insurance Contributions, which has a fixed min and max. (Well the tax pot anyway)

This is take directly out of our wages every time we get paid and clearly shows it on the payslip - so hard to forget

Are you sure the American health System at the moment doesn't make mistakes either??

As I said, the NHS has become idol due to a lack of competition, from what I understand this will not be the case being proposed

It's a shame you didn't read my story of the NHS a little further on - For every bad case you here, how many great cases you don't?

[ETWolverine]

Yup it's a great system you guys have: Heavy infant in Grand Junction denied health insurance - The Denver Post
I'm so glad I live where I do and I can help my fellow citizen.

You mean as opposed to the Canadian system?

CTV News | Majority of Que. dentists quit health-care system

Surgery postponed indefinitely for 1,000 Kelowna patients

CBC News - Health - Wait times for surgery, medical treatments at all-time high: report

The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care by David Gratzer, City Journal Summer 2007

CBC News - Health - Cancer patients question why PET scan not covered

Yep... great system you've got there.

>Snicker<

Elliot

[phlanx]

PS Wolverine, you point out where the NHS goes wrong with a handful of articles

What about the few million of americans who aren't lucky enough to even have an appointment in the first place to have it cancelled!

[phlanx]

In both countries there is private medical care available through insurance, so you still have the choice of public or private care

Or has that point totally passed you by?

[speechlesstx]

PS Wolverine, you point out where the NHS goes wrong with a handful of articles

What about the few million of americans who arent lucky enough to even have an appointment in the first place to have it cancelled!

I've asked and asked and asked and no one has yet to pinpoint who in this country goes without health care. We have some without insurance, but nobody has to go without health care.

[ETWolverine]

Hello again, tom:

Your post, yet again, confirms MY suspicion that your opposition to health care reform has NOTHING to do with health care reform, and EVERYTHING to do with defeating Obama at every turn. This due to your wacko belief that health care reform, or anything he does for that matter, is the first step in a communist takeover...

Well, that would be because Obama's health care reform has nothing to do with health care reform, but rather a takeover of the economy.

If it really was about health care reform, why would he not address tort reform? Why would he not address lowering costs by making them pre-tax? Why would he not talk about portability and interstate competition? Why would he push the one system that would insure that costs go UP instead of DOWN as he claims to want them to go?

Obama's goal is clearly NOT to reform health care, but rather to TAKE OVER health care. Reform is just the excuse.

And you better get your tin foil hat now... the cost of tin foil is going to go up too under Obama. You can't produce tin without producing carbon dioxide, and he's going to tax that too.

Elliot

[phlanx]

There were 58000 brave americans who died in Vietnam, and there were protests and marches against the war

45000 americans die EACH YEAR for nothing more than a lack of a health care system

Study links 45,000 U.S. deaths to lack of insurance | Health | Reuters

[ETWolverine]

Wolverine - Death and Taxes mate!

I don't pay the builder to make the roads I drive down either, but I still don't get charged for doing so

Taxes are a certainty mate, or don't you appreciate that simple truth?

By the way... how are the potholes on your street? Are you satisfied with how your government takes care of the roads? Arre you getting your money's worth from the taxes you have paid?

I'm not. The roads that I PAY FOR via my taxes are full of potholes, poorly maintained and are fixed by the lowest bidder... meaning that it is done with the minimal competence that they can get away with.

That's how your health care is handled too...

How's it feel to be covered for your heart surgery by the same government takes care of your roads via the lowest bidder and the least possible amount of competence?

Again, no thanks, buddy.

What about the few million of americans who aren't lucky enough to even have an appointment in the first place to have it cancelled!

As for those without health insurance in this country, I have laid out a plan to reform the system without resorting to nationalization/socialization/marxism to get the job done. Not that I can take credit for these ideas. They are all Conservative proposals that have been ignored by the Liberals in the government and the media. These include:

1) Make all medical-related costs pre-tax. This is to include the costs of purchasing health insurance and any medical services or co-pays. This would immediately lower medical costs by 30% making them more affordable to everyone, including those who don't currently have insurance.

2) Lower taxes so that more have the disposable income to afford health care.

3) Modify Medicare and Medicaid to cover those that SHOULD be covered under these programs but are not.

4) Tort reform, if properly enacted, could lower medical spending by as much as 60%, especially in "high risk" specialties. In Texas, such tort reform has had the effect of lower health care costs across the board by 30-35% in two years, and also has resulted in an influx of 7500 new doctors to practice in the state.

5) DEREGULATE the medical industry. Useless regulation costs money that could be spent better actually HEALING people. Something like 25-35% of any hospital's overhead is related to regulatory compliance. There is a clear level of OVERKILL in medical regulation. Bring the level of regulation down to something reasonable.

6) De-unionize the hospitals. Union benefits cost a fortune. Union contracts require minimum numbers of employees even if those employees are redundant or not needed. That costs money that could be better spent elsewhere. This is the same problem that caused the fall of the American auto makers, and it can be fixed by getting rid of the union contracts.

7) As an ABSOLUTE LAST RESORT, the government could give uninsured citizens a stipend to pay for their health insurance (adjustable based on family size). This stipend would have a time limitation built in so that it doesn't become an "evergreen" welfare program. But it will give families some time to get their feet back under them after a job loss that lasts more than a couple of months by allowing them to purchase the insurance plan of their choice. It is NOT meant to be a permanent benefit and should have a cut-off of, say, 18 months or 2 years. After that, you're on COBRA and pay for your insurance yourself.

8) Since private insurance is cheaper when you have group coverage, let everyone who is collecting unemployment insurance in every state form their own group via the state unemployment office. This group can then find the group coverage that suits them best. Even if they have to pay out of pocket, they'll be paying group rates that are cheaper than trying to pay the individual rate.

9) Create a "build-your-own-policy" service. It allows people to get the coverage they want and need without having to pay for the stuff they don't want or need. This can make policies WAY cheaper while still providing the coverage needed.

10) Create "portability" and interstate competition. The way the regulations are currently written, a person can only purchase medical insurance from the state in which they reside. That means that they only have about 6-10 companies to choose from in large states, and as few as 2 or 3 in smaller states. If these regulations were changed to allow people to purchase insurance from ANY state and carry it to their own state, the number of choices we would have would increase to 1300, which would increase competition significantly, which would result in lower costs and better services.

THAT is how to fix the problem... not nationalization. All of these options except #3 are free market solutions, and any ONE of them would make insurance more accessible to everyone, including those currently uninsured. All of these proposals actually ADDRESS THE ISSUES of cost and accessibility, as opposed to the proposals for nationalization which even the Libs proposing them admit won't fix these issues.

Phlanx, you wanted to know what about those who are uninsured? THAT is my solution to helping the uninsured.

Elliot