[Athos]

That's the proof passage that a child is born with a conscience.

The Bible is not a "proof" passage of anything. Good grief.

Do you really believe that Bible passage is a "proof"? Or that the Bible "proves" anything?

Please tell me no. Please.

[Wondergirl]

The Bible is not a "proof" passage of anything. Good grief.

Do you really believe that Bible passage is a "proof"? Or that the Bible "proves" anything?

Please tell me no. Please.

Why are you making it mine? I said "the."

[Athos]

Why are you making it mine? I said "the."

You said "That's the proof passage that a child is born with a conscience".

Now you're saying "Why does that make it mine? I said 'the'".?

Try to stay on topic - the readers here will appreciate your doing so.

[elscarta]

What makes you believe that God cares? What has happened in your life that makes you think that God intervenes?

When I finished high school I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life so I joined the air force (because my sister had done so) and chose to study electronic engineering (because my brother was studying this).

Three months into my course it was a long weekend and I was invited to stay with someone I had met through a friend but they were not going to be home till late on Friday night. I caught a tram into the city and found myself at the war memorial, standing in front of the perpetual flame.

While I was standing there I heard a voice say to me "What are you doing here? This is not for you." In that moment I knew that I was going to resign my commission in the air force. It took two weeks to convince my superiors that I wasn't home sick nor that I felt the course wasn't challenging enough for me. I knew I had to leave when I did, even though it meant giving up a good income, free board, food and medical and not being able to start studying to be a teacher for 9 months as I had to wait to the next year intake at uni.

That was the only time that God spoke directly to me. The other times in my life that I have felt God intervene have been more situational. Things happen, usually at the last minute, that I have no control over, but are the right things for me. I have also seen this happen in my wife's life too.

[Wondergirl]

Try to stay on topic - the readers here will appreciate your doing so.

I was only answering your question. It must have been a rhetorical one.

[Alty]

Lets try to keep this civil, we have done so for over 10 pages. There is no need to be critical or mean. Discussion means disagreement, that's the way it is, but we can discuss nicely, we are after all adults.

I still believe that children are born with a clean slate. What they become, what they learn, doesn't come from having a conscience at birth, but comes from their environment, those that care for them. Otherwise, the children that were given up to raise themselves in the wild, feral children, and yes, they are out there, would know right from wrong. They don't, because no one taught them. If they were born with a conscience then it would be logical that they would automatically know right from wrong, even without an example from a parental figure etc.

I'm fascinated by these children. There have been many books written and many documentaries done to follow the lives of these children. Most have no social understanding, which is to be expected. They do not have a moral compass because they were never taught the difference between right and wrong. A child born with a conscience would know, it would be ingrained. The proof is with these feral children. We are not born with a conscience, it is something we either learn, or don't.

Athos, I don't "want to have my cake and eat it too" if you read all the posts you'll know why I believe what I do. If you want to discuss Deism then at least learn what Deism is.

[Alty]

When I finished high school I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life so I joined the air force (because my sister had done so) and chose to study electronic engineering (because my brother was studying this).

Three months into my course it was a long weekend and I was invited to stay with someone I had met through a friend but they were not going to be home till late on Friday night. I caught a tram into the city and found myself at the war memorial, standing in front of the perpetual flame.

While I was standing there I heard a voice say to me "What are you doing here? This is not for you." In that moment I knew that I was going to resign my commission in the air force. It took two weeks to convince my superiors that I wasn't home sick nor that I felt the course wasn't challenging enough for me. I knew I had to leave when I did, even though it meant giving up a good income, free board, food and medical and not being able to start studying to be a teacher for 9 months as I had to wait to the next year intake at uni.

That was the only time that God spoke directly to me. The other times in my life that I have felt God intervene have been more situational. Things happen, usually at the last minute, that I have no control over, but are the right things for me. I have also seen this happen in my wife's life too.

You believe that this voice was God's, I believe it was you, your subconscious speaking.

I too have hear my internal voice, telling me that something that I'm doing isn't right. It's not that unbelievable to me, seeing as I do know myself better then anyone else. ;)

There are many times that I've know the right path to follow but didn't take it. Is it so surprising that my eternal voice would tell me what I already knew but didn't want to accept?

There is a difference. To you it's the voice of God, to me it's the voice of my conscience, the rules and regulations I grew up with and the knowledge that even though I may want to do something, doesn't mean it's right.

If you want to believe that that voice is God and that brings you peace, I think that's great. I don't believe that God, an all powerful being, powerful enough to create this world, would trouble himself with the mere mortals that habitate his creation.

[elscarta]

You believe that this voice was God's, I believe it was you, your subconscious speaking.

You make it some like I don't know the "voice" of my own conscience. What I heard that night was something entirely different. The voice was separate from me and it was full of power. Even thinking about it now, 25 years later, raises powerful emotions that no other life changing decisions that I have made remotely come close to.

Three months after I started dating my wife, one evening while we were sitting at the beach I proposed to her. Why? Because at that moment I knew that she was the one, but there was no "voice" proclaiming "She's the one" and while it was a very emotional moment, the power and awe that I felt when I heard "What are you doing here? This is not for you." was not there.

Regarding my career as a teacher, it hasn't been easy for me. I taught at a Catholic school for 10 years and had many problems with students and their parents and did not get support, even from the principal. In the end I came close to having a nervous breakdown so I resigned. I spent the next 5 years taking virtual tour photographs for real estate agents.

Currently I am back teaching at a Christian school. Why is one of those situational times I see God in my life. I wasn't looking to get back into teaching when the principal of the school asked me if I would take up the position of Maths/Science teacher as the school was expanding. Immediately I said yes. Teaching at this school also has been challenging, but for different reasons to my first school.

I believe that not only did God intervene in my life that Friday night, but that night He also intervened in the lives of my students. How many and which ones I will never know, but they will since I am always asked by my students why I chose to be a teacher when I am smart enough to have been a doctor or anything else and my answer to them is to tell them of that night when God spoke to me.

[elscarta]

The thing is, my reasons aren't reasonable to you.

You use the words proof, reasoning and reasons many times in your postings which implies you are logical and rational and are interested in logical and rational arguments and you have framed your reasoning for not believing in a caring God in a logically sound way. It takes the form of "denying the consequent".

"If a caring God exists, then there would be no suffering.
Since there is suffering, this means that a caring God does not exist."

But the flaw in your argument is in the premise.

"If a caring God exists then there would be no suffering."

This statement is not valid. As I, and others, have explained in a number of posts, suffering is a direct result of "free will". To remove suffering requires the removal of "free will".

You also said

You believe in a loving caring God, one that cares for his creation, even with all the evidence that He doesn't.

I disagree that you have presented any evidence that He doesn't. Your evidence is a list of all the types of suffering that exists but what does this prove?

Suffering exists because of two possibilities:

1. A caring God does not exist.
2. A caring God exists who values free will greater than the absence of suffering.

You choose to believe in the first possibility, while I choose to believe in the second. Neither possibility is proved by the existence of suffering.

[Alty]

1. A caring God does not exist.
2. A caring God exists who values free will greater than the absence of suffering.

You choose to believe in the first possibility, while I choose to believe in the second. Neither possibility is proved by the existence of suffering.

That's just it. I cannot accept a caring God because of the suffering.

You say that removing suffering would take away our free will. How? Does free will cause cancer? Does free will cause a child to be left to fend for himself in a third world country after watching his parents killed in front of him? What kind of caring God would allow that to continue?

You claim there are miracles, that there is proof of miracles. The flower that grows in the desert, the woman who's cured of cancer. If the bible is true then God is capable of far greater miracles then those. If the bible is true then he parted the sea, he made it possible for a virgin to carry his son, he turned blood in to wine, etc. etc. etc. What has he done lately that's actually changed the world for the better? I don't see any proof of miracles, otherwise that third world child would not be left hungry, alone, trying so very hard to survive. What will his suffering do for him? What purpose will it serve? None.

Suffering is exactly the reason I don't believe in a caring God. Look around you, not just in your backyard, but everywhere. There are people suffering every day. Innocent children, people that do not deserve what they're getting. What does free will have to do with any of this? Nothing.

[Wondergirl]

You say that removing suffering would take away our free will. How?

When God created us, He took a step back in order to give us free will, just like a parent who hands the car keys to his teenager, giving up some autonomy so that the teen can have freedom. If the parent could never surrender the car keys to his teen, what would the teen learn from that? What would we learn if we had no free will? We would be puppets and there would be no learning. We would all be like Stepford wives, like robots.

Does free will cause cancer? Does free will cause a child to be left to fend for himself in a third world country after watching his parents killed in front of him?

Yes and yes. Do you know the causes of cancer? I'm betting cancer has an awful lot to do with how people have, with their free will, misused the resources of this world. And the child's parents were killed by someone who exercised his free will, but for the evil instead of for the good.

What kind of caring God would allow that to continue?

One who wants us to be able to make choices and not be His puppets.

You claim there are miracles, that there is proof of miracles. The flower that grows in the desert, the woman who's cured of cancer. If the bible is true then God is capable of far greater miracles then those.

So you're not satisfied with just those miracles. You want more as proof. And those wouldn't be enough either, so even more would have to be added to the list. Don't you know that there are miracles every day happening all around you, but you don't know all of them. And I'm guessing you would say something like, "Well, THAT'S not a miracle! Women are supposed to have live, healthy babies, and vegetables are supposed to grow when you plant seeds."

What has he done lately that's actually changed the world for the better?

Open your eyes, and look around you.

[Alty]

Women are supposed to have live, healthy babies, and vegetables are supposed to grow when you plant seeds."

Women can die in childbirth, as can children, but the majority of them are born alive, so no, that's not a miracle. Every day vegetable grow from seeds, nothing miraculous about that either. Today, like every other day, I got out of bed, is that a miracle too?

In the bible the miracles were extreme, parting seas, feeding 100's with just one fish and loaf of bread. What happened to those miracles.

You're right, it takes more then a head of lettuce to make me believe in miracles.

As for the child whose parents where murdered. Yes, the men who killed his parents were exercising their free will. What of the child? Does he have a choice? No. None. So where's his miracle?

You want to prove that God intervenes, but everything around you says he doesn't.

[Wondergirl]

Today, like every other day, I got out of bed, is that a miracle too?

Yes, I could get out of bed easily a week ago, but have had increasing trouble doing it, and couldn't this morning without help. Yes, getting out of bed is a miracle.

So where's his miracle?

We were talking about free will, not about miracles.

[Alty]

We were talking about free will, not about miracles.

No WG, you were talking about free will being the reason that God doesn't intervene. I was asking for proof that he does, miracles, or just basic compassion would do.

You do realize that we basically agree. All of you say that God gives man free will, so you do in fact agree with me, he doesn't intervene.

If he was the loving God that takes an interest in the world he created, wouldn't he save the little boy that I talked about? That little boy is very real. Every day he wakes up in the pile of trash he sleeps in. He seeks out food in that trash, some days he's lucky, most days he's not. He's 7 years old, his parents were murdered right before his eyes when he was only 5. He has no other family. He lives in a third world country where everyone struggles just to survive. Where is God? That boy is alone, cold, hungry. He's a child. Again, where is God?

You speak of free will. Yes, the men that killed his parents had free will, they are evil. Still I ask, where is God? Instead of making a tree grow in the shade, instead of telling someone that he's not doing the right thing with his life, instead of all these tiny minuscule nothings, why not save the child? Why? Because he doesn't intervene.

We're discussing my beliefs in Deism and without even knowing it you basically agree with me. God walked away, otherwise, that little boy I spoke of, he wouldn't exist.

[elscarta]

You do realize that we basically agree. All of you say that God gives man free will, so you do in fact agree with me, he doesn't intervene.

I disagree that us saying that God gives man free will means that we agree with you that he doesn't intervene. Up until the last few posts, the argument was about whether the existence of suffering meant that God was not a caring God. In post #109 I pointed out the flaw in your reasoning which means that the truth of your conclusion cannot be determined by what you have argued.

I certainly believe that God intervenes in this world in many ways, sometimes in miraculous ways (yes they still occur today, people are cured of cancer, literally overnight when doctors have said that there was no hope.), other times He intervenes in "tiny miniscule nothings" as you put it, but whose to say that they really are "tiny miniscule nothings"?

In chaos theory, small changes to the initial conditions can lead to large changes in the final outcome even in a short amount of time. This is known as: The Butterfly Effect

The following link,

Hitler Could Have Been Killed Long Before WWII, But a Kind Heart Intervened

Shows how a seemingly kind act can have devastating consequences. And yet maybe we were saved from total annihilation by that soldier not shooting Hitler as WWII may not have started until after nuclear weapons had proliferated.

As I have stated in my post #108, I have had personal experience of God intervening in my life and I trust that God knew what He doing and what would happen because I listened to Him, even if I will never know.

[inthebox]

No WG, you were talking about free will being the reason that God doesn't intervene. I was asking for proof that he does, miracles, or just basic compassion would do.

You do realize that we basically agree. All of you say that God gives man free will, so you do in fact agree with me, he doesn't intervene.

If he was the loving God that takes an interest in the world he created, wouldn't he save the little boy that I talked about? That little boy is very real. Every day he wakes up in the pile of trash he sleeps in. He seeks out food in that trash, some days he's lucky, most days he's not. He's 7 years old, his parents were murdered right before his eyes when he was only 5. He has no other family. He lives in a third world country where everyone struggles just to survive. Where is God? That boy is alone, cold, hungry. He's a child. Again, where is God?

You speak of free will. Yes, the men that killed his parents had free will, they are evil. Still I ask, where is God? Instead of making a tree grow in the shade, instead of telling someone that he's not doing the right thing with his life, instead of all these tiny miniscule nothings, why not save the child? Why? Because he doesn't intervene.

We're discussing my beliefs in Deism and without even knowing it you basically agree with me. God walked away, otherwise, that little boy I spoke of, he wouldn't exist.

So you expect God to get rid of all suffering?

I don't know if you are a parent, but as a parent I don't want my kids to suffer, so in order to do that lets us see what I must do to keep them from suffering:

Wake them in the morning and get them out of bed, but I line the floors with rubber and cotton, so just in case they fall I don't want them to get hurt.

Have them eat breakfast, but it can't be any oat bran muffin, although that is healthy, I don't want them to suffer from eating something they don't like to eat.

Get them to school, no walking, no school bus - in my car in the back in the middle with a safety harness surrounded my styrofoam, just in case we get into an accident.

At school, a mask and gloves need to be warn to prevent infections, wouldn't want them to suffer any illnesses, better yet I'll just put them in a sterilized buble.

At school, I will have to listen to all speech, so as to not let my child hear anything potentially harmful, or offensive - son't want them to suffer that.

No after school sports, especially contact, for obvious reasons. No sports in which you have to try out - wouldn't want them to suffer from rejection.

No dating, no sex [ can't suffer STDs that way ], no loud music, wouldn't want their hearing to sufffer.

...


I think my kids are happy this way. :D






G&P

[Alty]

So you expect God to get rid of all suffering?

I don't know if you are a parent, but as a parent I don't want my kids to suffer, so in order to do that lets us see what I must do to keep them from suffering:

Wake them in the morning and get them out of bed, but I line the floors with rubber and cotton, so just in case they fall I don't want them to get hurt.

Have them eat breakfast, but it can't be any oat bran muffin, although that is healthy, I don't want them to suffer from eating something they don't like to eat.

Get them to school, no walking, no school bus - in my car in the back in the middle with a safety harness surrounded my styrofoam, just in case we get into an accident.

At school, a mask and gloves need to be warn to prevent infections, wouldn't want them to suffer any illnesses, better yet I'll just put them in a sterilized buble.

At school, I will have to listen to all speech, so as to not let my child hear anything potentially harmful, or offensive - son't want them to suffer that.

No after school sports, especially contact, for obvious reasons. No sports in which you have to try out - wouldn't want them to suffer from rejection.

No dating, no sex [ can't suffer STDs that way ], no loud music, wouldn't want their hearing to sufffer.

...


I think my kids are happy this way. :D






G&P

I am a parent, I have two beautiful children that I have mentioned a few times in this thread alone.

All of your arguments are tiny little things that we all have to go through, all have to "suffer" through to become adults. None of these things will kill our children.

My argument all along, if you read back, is that Christians think of God as the father of humanity, the creator, we are his children, blah, blah, blah.

So, let me ask you, If your child was going to be molested and you had the power to stop it, would you? Is this something your child has to go through in order to be "happy", in order to grow as a human being?

If you were to be murdered, in front of your child, would you as a parent think that letting that your child fend for him/herself, living each day on the edge, sleeping in a garbage heap, suffering both mentally and physically, would be good for his/her soul? Would you as a Christian hope that the "father" of the world would save your child or is it just another part of growing up?

You speak of miracles. Where? Cancer being cured when there's no explanation. There is an explanation, we just haven't found it yet. How many years did human beings believe that the earth was flat? It took a curious mind to determine that that belief was wrong. Is that a miracle? No, it just wasn't discovered until later.

The God of the bible parted seas, turned wine into blood, a stick into a serpent, etc. etc. I'm sure you could quote the miracles far better then I could. So, if God intervenes, performs miracles, where are they? There are things far easier then parting a sea, but they're not being done.

What of the child I spoke of? Why is he being left to fend for himself? Where is God? No one can answer that. Why?

[Wondergirl]

So, if God intervenes, performs miracles, where are they? There are things far easier then parting a sea, but they're not being done.

Of course, they are. Do you need a big colorful sign posted, MIRACLE DONE HERE? How many earthquakes and tsunamis and volcanoes haven't happened because God kept them from happening? How many traffic accidents have been prevented because God caused people to snap to in time or stop texting in time or look up in time? How many people haven't died because God nudged them to the right place at the right time? (I got nudged years ago and saved a stranger's life. I had no intention of being there, but the nudge was too strong to ignore.)

We have no idea of the miracles God has performed in our favor, to save us from something, but I am sure they are multitudinous. (He doesn't post signs.)

[Alty]

Of course, they are. Do you need a big colorful sign posted, MIRACLE DONE HERE? How many earthquakes and tsunamis and volcanoes haven't happened because God kept them from happening? How many traffic accidents have been prevented because God caused people to snap to in time or stop texting in time or look up in time? How many people haven't died because God nudged them to the right place at the right time? (I got nudged years ago and saved a stranger's life. I had no intention of being there, but the nudge was too strong to ignore.)

We have no idea of the miracles God has performed in our favor, to save us from something.

WG, most of the "miracles" you claim are because of human intervention, not divine intervention.

As for earthquakes and tsunamis, just because it didn't happen doesn't mean it was stopped. How about all the earthquakes and tsunamis that did happen, that did take lives. Why stop one but not another?

You seem to want it both ways. You want a God the intervenes yet you can't prove he does. Then you use the very examples that I say prove he doesn't intervene to try and prove he does.

You can't have it both ways. Either he stops tsunamis or he doesn't. Either he cures cancer or he doesn't.

Your God seems to pick.

[Wondergirl]

Your God seems to pick and choose.

We've already mentioned that God had to take a step back in order to give us free will. We don't know the power of the evil forces that He is up against.