[JoeT777]

That is a very bad translation of that verse which reads
"Call now if you will but who will answer you, to which of the holy ones will you turn" (NIV)
and taken out of context, Job is being questioned about which gods he might turn to for there were no saints available, so this verse cannot sanction intercession to the saints. It is clear from this verse that Job will find help in God alone

It is interesting that shortly after the warning is given
"I myself have seen a fool taking root":)

It's not a bad translation at all. I think the problem you're having is in the narrative of Job. Job isn't talking at all. Let's take a look at the verse, “Call now, if there be any that will answer thee, and turn to some of the saints.” (Job 5:1 - Douay-Rheims)

In the previous chapter Eliphas is mocking and, in a roundabout way, accuses Job of some impropriety, after all God doesn't punish the innocent; right? Don't those who hold the once-saved-always-saved doctrine believe that God never inflects suffering on the innocent? Eliphas continues mocking Job, by saying try and call; see who answers you. Contemptuously Eliphas asks to see which of the saints he will turn to for comfort since none seem to answer.

And why not mock Job? I'd answer that we are sometimes asked to suffer along with Christ in His name. And Job does so patiently, steadfast to his trust in God.

In an attempt to make Job confess his sins, Eliphas reminds him that only a fool would be so obstinate. So, as here, we have the fool calling those suffering innocently, a fool. Who, turns out to be the bigger fool in the end of the story of Job?

But, just to make sure we haven't infected our Catholic understanding on verse 1 of Job let's look at how some of the other translations render the same verse; especially now that we understand the narrative.

Job 5:1Call now, if there be any that will answer thee; and to which of the saints wilt thou turn? (King James Version)

[OH no! it's in the KJV version. Those rascally Catholics must've snuck that in there too! No doubt it's a Catholic plot – let's look at the NIV]

Job 5:1 "Call if you will, but who will answer you? To which of the holy ones will you turn? (New International Version )

[Good? - no saints here. But, who are the 'holy ones'?]

Job 5:1"Call now, is there anyone who will answer you? And to which of the holy ones will you turn? New (American Standard Bible (NASB)

[Opps we got holy ones here too. 'Holy ones' could be saints? See Job 15:15 – but then we must recognize this translation renders the same way – 'pray to the saints'. ]

Job 5: 1 Eliphaz continued, "Call out if you want to, Job. But who will answer you? Which one of the holy angels will you turn to? (New International Reader's Version )

[The NIVRV only changes saints to 'holy angels' nothing new here except that still generally conforms to Catholic understanding of the verse.]

Job 5: 1 "Call if you will, but who will answer you? To which of the holy ones will you turn? (Today's New International Version)
[TNIV version is more of the same, but, the punctuation seems helpful – at least, it does if you like the Catholic rendition of this verse]

But, let's continue to see if we can find more scriptural evidence to praying or supplicating to the saints; we have Jacob who after fighting an Angel prays to him. "Jacob prevailed over the Angel, and wept and made supplication to him." (Hosea 12: 4). Furthermore we see that Paul teaches to 'communicate' with the saints.

Rom 12:11-13 In carefulness not slothful. In spirit fervent. Serving the Lord. Rejoicing in hope. Patient in tribulation. Instant in prayer. Communicating to the necessities of the saints. Pursuing hospitality.

Not just an offhanded prayer, but prayers that are 'reverent', 'hopeful', 'patient', that is “He does not say, Bestow upon, but share with the necessity of the saints, to show that they receive more than they give, that it is a matter of merchandise, because it is a community. Do you bring in money? They bring you in boldness toward God. Given to (Gr. pursuing) hospitality. He does not say doing it, but given to it, so to instruct us not to wait for those that shall ask it, and see when they will come to us, but to run to them, and be given to finding them.” (St. Chrysostom, Homily 21)

Then of course we have Paul again who sends his three deacons to the Corinthians who minister to the saints. Paul turns his conversation in Chapter 16 to the “collections that are made for the saints.” How would such a verse be rendered with regard to praying to the saints?

And I beseech you, brethren, you know the house of Stephanas, and of Fortunatus, and of Achaicus, that they are the firstfruits of Achaia, and have dedicated themselves to the ministry of the saints: (1 Cor 16:15 ) “And that they flourished in good works also, he declares by what follows, saying, They have set themselves to minister unto the saints.” (St. St. Chrysostom, Homily 44)

JoeT

[arcura]

paraclete,
"There were no saints"??
Jesus said there were saints. I believe Him and not you.
He even said that they were living and not dead.
Matthew 22: 31. "But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying,
32. `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
33. And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[paraclete]

paraclete,

32. `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Fred look at the Scripture you have just used, what does it say? There is no focus on the dead here, no focus on the "saints", follow Jesus, Fred, not the flawed sayings and teachings of men

[arcura]

paraclete,
What Jesus said applies to all saints since Adam and eve.
Fred

[paraclete]

paraclete,
What Jesus said applies to all saints since Adam and eve.
Fred

There were no saints until Jesus made them so, Adam and Eve were not saints but examples of how not to live

[classyT]

Fred and Joe,

Of course all that had faith and died physically are NOW with the Father. But back before Jesus death and resurrection they were NOT with the Father in heaven. This is just one of the many things the death and resurrection of the Lord did. The Lord Jesus himself was able to march all of those OT believers in the presence of the Father. Before that time, they were in the same place as the unbelievers only they were in a resting place and a great gulf separated them from those that were in torment. We get a picture of this when Jesus spoke about a CERTAIN beggar man named Lazarus and the rich man.

I agree that "positionally" they were all saints before the death of the Lord Jesus but until He made the atonement for them on the cross they could not be with the Father. The blood of the animals covered them until HIS blood could make full atonement and wash them. Until that happened, they absolutely were NOT in the presence of the MOST HIGH GOD. So your theory of them being with the Father and therefore CLOSER to him... could not possiibly be so.

Again I will ask, when the writer of HEbrews says we NOW may come boldly to the throne of Grace and enter into HIS presence to speak to HIM... why would we need to humbly ask a "saint" who has already passed to interceed for us? Can't find that scripture ANYWHERE in the BIBLE. I can't find one scripture to suggest they know us individually and are able to HEAR anything we say. From everything I can find... "spritually and postionally" speaking I am just as close to the Father and have access to HiM as anyone who has passed from this life into heaven. See, Christ is IN ME. Can't get much closer than that.

NOTE: Joe... I KNOW the Lord is not the God of the dead but the LIVING! But that doesn't mean the onces that passed on can HEAR US! They are NOT GOD.

[sndbay]

I view the scripture of Job 5:2-3 saying how foolish it is to think your envy for the saint would cause you to call on them. And God's wrath would be concerning this foolish deed.

REFER:
Job 5:2-3 For wrath killeth the foolish man, and envy slayeth the silly one. I have seen the foolish taking root: but suddenly I cursed his habitation.

The hungry for the truth or fruitfulness can be swallowed up, because it was taken out of thorns. The intrepretation of these verses must be watched carefully.
REFER:
Job 5:5 Whose harvest the hungry eateth up, and taketh it even out of the thorns, and the robber swalloweth up their substance.

Instead we seek God for all the righteousness of HIS truth. HIS power does great things, marvellous things beyond any amount.

REFER:
Job 5:8 I would seek unto God, and unto God would I commit my cause

[Unknown008]

Hmm.. my bible is in French, (no worries) but it says angel instead of saints in Job 5:1, also in Rom 12:11-13. However in 1 Cor 16:15, here it says brothers... :confused:

Also, I agree with sndbay with what is in the context in Job 5:1-5. The first verse is like sarcasm asking to call and realise that he could call, but no one would answer.

Wait... does that mean you are arguing that you (JoeT and acura) do pray to the saints?

[JoeT777]

In chapter 5 of Job we do see the contempt for praying to the saints being stated by Eliphas. Eliphaz, Baldad and Sophar are three friends of Job. Eliphaz was a sage, Baidad and Sophar were well regarded Arabian leaders. But, Eliphas is mocking Job (maybe goading is a better word), in an attempt to get Job to confess his sins. It's obvious from the narrative that Job's neighbors are worried that the curse placed on Job will also visit them. But, Job is patient in his suffering – which is the moral of the story. Also see CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Job

Chapter 1. Job's virtue and riches. Satan by permission from God strippeth him of all his substance. His patience.
Chapter 2. Satan, by God's permission, striketh Job with ulcers from head to foot: his patience is still invincible.
Chapter 3. Job expresseth his sense of the miseries of man's life, by cursing the day of his birth.
Chapter 4. Eliphas charges Job with impatience, and pretends that God never afflicts the innocent.
Chapter 5. Eliphaz proceeds in his charge, and exhorts Job to acknowledge his sins.
Chapter 6. Job maintains his innocence, and complains of his friends.
Chapter 7. Job declares the miseries of man's life: and addresses himself to God.
Chapter 8. Baldad, under pretence of defending the justice of God, accuses Job, and exhorts him to return to God.
Chapter 9. Job acknowledges God's justice: although he often afflicts the innocent.
Chapter 10. Job laments his afflictions and begs to be delivered.
Chapter 11. Sophar reproves Job, for justifying himself, and invites him to repentance.
And finally,
Chapter 42. Job submits himself. God pronounces in his favour. Job offers sacrifice for his friends. He is blessed with riches and children, and dies happily,
Source: NEW ADVENT BIBLE: Job

If verses 2, 3 and 4 in chapter 5 of Job are meant to show the folly of praying to an intercessor then there is a conflict with the entire book of Job; God appears to be schizophrenic. This is apparent when God dresses down Eliphaz for his foolish advice to Job. God tells Eliphaz to go to Job and have intercede on his behalf.

…he [the Lord] said to Eliphaz the Themanite: My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends, because you have not spoken the thing that is right before me, as my servant Job hath. Take unto you therefore seven oxen and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer for yourselves a holocaust, and my servant Job shall pray for you: his face I will accept, that folly be not imputed to you: for you have not spoken right things before me, as my servant Job hath. (Job 42:7-8)

JoeT

[JoeT777]

Wait... does that mean you are arguing that you (JoeT and acura) do pray to the saints?

Yes I do pray to saints, and to Mary, but I don't worship saints or Mary.

[sndbay]

What we have to remember is, that it is an honour to serve God.

A saint would be thankful and would humble themselves to serve! It is not that they are given honour by what they did, but they were honoured to do what was necessary.

Have you ever said your welcome to someone, and let them know it was a honour to help them. (humble yourself)

Refer:
1 Peter 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

[JoeT777]

What we have to remember is, that it is an honour to serve God.

A saint would be thankful and would humble themselves to serve! It is not that they are given honour by what they did, but they were honoured to do what was necessary.

Have you ever said your welcome to someone, and let them know it was a honour to help them. (humble yourself)

Refer:
1 Peter 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

How does this affect our conversation - that Catholics pray to saints? I missed the significance.

JoeT

[sndbay]

How does this affect our conversation - that Catholics pray to saints? I missed the significance.

JoeT

It all goes back to why you pray to them. Why you have hope of them helping you.

In chapter 38 of Job, God has told Job to get up, and to stop listening to those that know nothing. Will you believe God and trust God?

[Unknown008]

Hmmm... interesting... good points sndbay. :)

[sndbay]

But, let's continue to see if we can find more scriptural evidence to praying or supplicating to the saints; we have Jacob who after fighting an Angel prays to him. "Jacob prevailed over the Angel, and wept and made supplication to him." (Hosea 12: 4).

Hosea 12:3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God 12:4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto Him: He found him in Bethel, and there He spake with us

(he wept Jacob) by which former histories are supplemented by later Divine inspiration.
(God found Jacob) (Jehovah spake)

Genesis 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Furthermore we see that Paul teaches to 'communicate' with the saints.

Rom 12:11-13 In carefulness not slothful. In spirit fervent. Serving the Lord. Rejoicing in hope. Patient in tribulation. Instant in prayer. Communicating to the necessities of the saints. Pursuing hospitality.

JoeT

Those saints to communicated to are as written and interpretated in Romans1:7

Romans 12:12-13 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.

Distributing means communicating
REFER
Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Unknown008]

Hey thanks for shedding more light onto that sndbay. :)

[sndbay]

Hey thanks for shedding more light onto that sndbay. :)

It is an honour to serve God

~In Christ

[JoeT777]

It all goes back to why you pray to them. Why you have hope of them helping you.

In chapter 38 of Job, God has told Job to get up, and to stop listening to those that know nothing. Will you believe God and trust God?

Yeah, He is referring to the three ninnies, and their friends, that keep giving him bad advice, those who “darken My words”. Considered any other way and you've butchered the entire narrative.

In this story we have the three antagonists, Job, and God. The antagonists want Job to confess to something he didn't do, they want Job to give up his patience and trust in God, they don't want Job to persevere in his faith. God then turns around, sets things right with Job and chastises the antagonists.

It's a classic story, in which praying to the saints plays an important role. Take that out and Job's trials mean nothing.

JoeT

[sndbay]

It’s a classic story, in which praying to the saints plays an important role. Take that out and Job's trials mean nothing.

JoeT

I disagree

Remember Elijah's teaching,

And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.


REFER:
Jeremiah 33:3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.

[JoeT777]

I disagree

Remember Elijah's teaching,

And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.


REFER:
Jeremiah 33:3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.

I'm not calling on the name of 'gods'

JoeT

Added Note: PS. – maybe there is more to your statement than meets the eye. Those being called on in prayer are saints, i.e. adopted sons of God. Taking your comment here at face value, you'd be suggesting that the saints are really pagan gods. Is this what is being said?