[classyT]

You are right, I have been hurt by Christianity, and that's because all religion always hurts everyone at some level or another. As a gay man, yeah, I've been hurt by Christianity that rejects me and who I am or tells me I have to be someone or something that I cannot be and don't want to be (like heterosexual). Yeah, that's a lot to be hurt about.

I have been hurt myself by so called Christians, so I can sympathize with you. All I know for sure is, Christianity SHOULDN'T hurt anyone! It should be about love. I don't believe it is a religion.. it is about a relationship with the Lord Jesus. So I sincerely am sorry for your pain. I think sometimes it is the worst kind of hurt because Christians are suppose to represent Christ.

One last thought... I don't believe that the Lord Jesus rejects ANYONE who is interested in a relationship with him. :) In fact, he doesn't reject anyone who doesn't want a relationship with him. He is ALWAYS trying to woo mankind to HIMSELF.

[excon]

As a gay man, yeah, I've been hurt by Christianity that rejects me

Hello caddy:

You're not going to get any sympathy over here. Did you watch that video? You must have experienced worse, though... I cannot imagine the pain of being gay and attempting to live a Christian life...

So, let's kick their butts over on the current affairs pages where I've been having my way with the righty's for a long time. In time, like the segregationists during the civil rights movement, they'll come to see the error of their ways.

excon

[classyT]

Ex,

Not so, I feel badly for Caddy. SINCERELY!! I want him to know that just because some so called Christian rejected him doesn't mean the Lord Jesus does. Heck Ex, he doesn't even reject YOU.. lol ;)

As far as kicking the "righty's" butt... better not let Gal or Speech here you say that. Thems fighting words. :)

[cadillac59]

Hello caddy:

You're not gonna get any sympathy over here. Did you watch that video?? You must have experienced worse, though... I cannot imagine the pain of being gay and attempting to live a Christian life....

So, let's kick their butts over on the current affairs pages where I've been having my way with the righty's for a long time. In time, like the segregationists during the civil rights movement, they'll come to see the error of their ways.

excon

Well I'm not attempting to live a Christian life, that's for sure. See, but your comment served to point out a major problem with Christianity-- it has a distorted view of reality (for example, that gay people do not exist and are merely straight people who have lost their way, or have picked up bad habits that can be changed).

[cadillac59]

Ex,

Not so, I feel badly for Caddy. SINCERELY!!! I want him to know that just because some so called Christian rejected him doesn't mean the Lord Jesus does. Heck Ex, he doesn't even reject YOU..lol ;)

As far as kickin the "righty's" butt...better not let Gal or Speech here ya say that. Thems fightin words. :)

Why feel bad? Why would I want to be a part of some religion (like Christianity) that rejects the very nature of who I am? It would be like a black person wanting to join a white racist church. It makes no sense.

[classyT]

Well I'm not attempting to live a Christian life, that's for sure. See, but your comment served to point out a major problem with Christianity-- it has a distorted view of reality (for example, that gay people do not exist and are merely straight people who have lost their way, or have picked up bad habits that can be changed).

You are wrong. I can speak for myself that I live in reality and I KNOW there are Gay people in this world and have been as long as humans have been on this earth. I get it.

I feel bad because I am a person who has feelings and I know what it is like to be hurt. I don't want to see anyone hurt and angry.

AND last but not least... Christianity is not a religion... it is a relationship with Jesus Christ. When you understand that the Lord Jesus isn't rejecting you at all, maybe you can have a relationship with him. Forget about Christians who you feel don't live in reality and think you are really just straight and lost your way. My suggestion is to get to know Jesus and quit looking at Christians. Heck, most of them on this site alone I want to smack every now and again myself. I'm just saying... don't give up on the Lord Jesus just because of a few Christians who may have meant well but were really unable to direct and counsel you appropriately.

[cadillac59]

You are wrong. I can speak for myself that I live in reality and I KNOW there are Gay people in this world and have been as long as humans have been on this earth. I get it.

I feel bad because I am a person who has feelings and I know what it is like to be hurt. I don't want to see anyone hurt and angry.

AND last but not least...Christianity is not a religion...it is a relationship with Jesus Christ. When you understand that the Lord Jesus isn't rejecting you at all, maybe you can have a relationship with him. Forget about Christians who you feel don't live in reality and think you are really just straight and lost your way. My suggestion is to get to know Jesus and quit looking at Christians. Heck, most of them on this site alone I wanna smack every now and again myself. I'm just saying .....don't give up on the Lord Jesus just because of a few Christians who may have meant well but were really unable to direct and counsel you appropriately.

You certainly seem well-intentioned, I can say that for you. You keep saying Christianity is not a religion but a relationship, and so on. Yes, I've heard that many many times in the past; it's a very old and banal expression. But the truth is Christianity fits every definition of a religion there is. Religion, relationship, it doesn't matter what your choice of terms.

I'm sure you realize many people --maybe most-- live their lives with no religion of any kind and lead full, happy, moral and fulfilling lives. I guess the point is you don't need it, it adds nothing to your life and quite to the contrary often does much harm. It's really just childish superstition.

[sndbay]

God created us to have an instinctive fear, and this fear might be for snakes, a big black scorpio spider or let's say satan and sin. In any case when we fear something, we usually run from it. We need to get away because the instinctive fear is telling us RUN!.

God does not want us to befriend the snake, the spider, or the sin of satan because they represent death to us. This instinctive fear is meant to help us, and protect us.

God has and will send HIS wrath to destroy the spider, the snake, and sin of satan. So God's wrath becomes something to fear, " if " we have befriended them instead of running away. We need to stay clear of HIS wrath because HIS wrath will destroy all that have turned to befriend and enjoy these things.

God tells us this uncleanness comes through the lusts of our own hearts,(befriended / enjoyed); and God will give individuals up to their lust. Because they changed the truth of God into a lie, and now worship and served the creature more than the Creator God.

And because they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

The call is for salvation, unto all. All that sin, all that are willing to hold FAITH in Christ Jesus.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to HIS abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

REPENT and be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

This is not just for the gay, it is for all sinners. A willing heart to be all God created us to be, in HIS image of righteousness.

[cadillac59]

God created us to have an instinctive fear, and this fear might be for snakes, a big black scorpio spider or let's say satan and sin. In any case when we fear something, we usually run from it. We need to get away because the instinctive fear is telling us RUN!.

God does not want us to befriend the snake, the spider, or the sin of satan because they represent death to us. This instinctive fear is meant to help us, and protect us.

God has and will send HIS wrath to destroy the spider, the snake, and sin of satan. So God's wrath becomes something to fear, " if " we have befriended them instead of running away. We need to stay clear of HIS wrath because HIS wrath will destroy all that have turned to befriend and enjoy these things.

God tells us this uncleanness comes through the lusts of our own hearts,(befriended / enjoyed); and God will give individuals up to their lust. Because they changed the truth of God into a lie, and now worship and served the creature more than the Creator God.

And because they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

The call is for salvation, unto all. All that sin, all that are willing to hold FAITH in Christ Jesus.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to HIS abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

REPENT and be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

This is not just for the gay, it is for all sinners. A willing heart to be all God created us to be, in HIS image of righteousness.

Was this intended for me to read or is it just some generalized scare tactic? Your loving god doesn't sound very loving to me. This is just coercive garbage and nothing else. Believe or else! It that is? That's the best you can come up with?

It's nice to know that there isn't the slightest bit of evidence that any of it is true.

Further, and finally, your entire commentary was based upon certain (rather childish) premises that are not true, God created us to have an instinctive fear, and this fear might be for snakes, a big black scorpio spider or let's say satan and sin. What a fatuous remark. I don't fear snakes or scorpions or spiders. And many of the things you call "sin" are not immoral anyway and I certainly don't fear them. For example, covetousness. What's wrong with wishing you had something your neighbor had? Wanting something the neighbor has can be good because it's often motivational. It's wrong to steal, but not to simply wish for something someone else has. You call sex outside of marriage a "sin"? I don't. There is nothing wrong with it at all, as long as it is between consenting adults in private. So you see, your examples of fearing supposedly bad things because god put fear of them in your heart is ridiculous.

[sndbay]

Was this intended for me to read or is it just some generalized scare tactic? Your loving god doesn't sound very loving to me. This is just coercive garbage and nothing else. Believe or else! It that is? That's the best you can come up with?

It's nice to know that there isn't the slightest bit of evidence that any of it is true.
.

Who was it intended for? Quoted: This is not just for the gay, it is for all sinners.

This is not just for the gay, it is for all sinners. A willing heart to be all God created us to be, in HIS image of righteousness.

(Matthew 4:4) It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Roman 1:22-23 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Romans 1:24-25 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Romans 1:26-27 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient

Romans 1:29-31 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,whisperers, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful

Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

slightest bit of evidence ? God knew it all and wrote every word to warn everyone, and teach us to fear sin that comes upon us. HIS wrath is for evil, and it is there to help us. Roman 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse (evidence)

[cadillac59]

Who was it intended for? Quoted: This is not just for the gay, it is for all sinners.




(Matthew 4:4) It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Roman 1:22-23 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Romans 1:24-25 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Romans 1:26-27 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient

Romans 1:29-31 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,whisperers, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful

Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

slightest bit of evidence ? God knew it all and wrote every word to warn everyone, and teach us to fear sin that comes upon us. HIS wrath is for evil, and it is there to help us. Roman 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse (evidence)

Instead of the bible quotes why not use your own thoughts and words? I don't accept or believe the bible anymore than you accept or believe some other religious text. The bible was written by ignorant sheepherders in the Middle East 2000 years ago who thought the earth was flat. What relevance has it today, especially to me? Would you pay attention if I quoted the Book of Mormon?

[galveston]

Cadillac, your posst question has been answered by several people.

Most churches still follow the Bible, and so will not follow the Lutheran lead on this.

You should move this to the discussion board, as it is clear that you did not want an answer to a question, but an excuse for your sin.

If you do not believe the Bible, have no use for God, and are not going to go to church anywhere, why bother to ask the queston in the first place?

Looks like you are a troll.

[sndbay]

Instead of the bible quotes why not use your own thoughts and words?

Posted in #48 was my own words. The request made was for the slightest bit of evidence, and the evidence I have offered is the written WORD of GOD. Whether or not you determine the bible reliable, is your decision.

I find the same test applies to the biblical documents as we would to any other ancient writing. In the law, testimony is a form of evidence that is obtained from a witness who makes a solemn statement or declaration of fact. The biblical documents have testimonies confirmed by several witnesses.

I do not deny you, your own choices in life. We are both accountable to our own choice.

Please know I do not attempt to persuade you either way. I offered my opinion to the question as to Why don't more churches follow the lead? And have followed by answering a request addressed to me

[cadillac59]

Posted in #48 was my own words. The request made was for the slightest bit of evidence, and the evidence I have offered is the written WORD of GOD. Whether or not you determine the bible reliable, is your decision.

I find the same test applies to the biblical documents as we would to any other ancient writing. In the law, testimony is a form of evidence that is obtained from a witness who makes a solemn statement or declaration of fact. The biblical documents have testimonies confirmed by several witnesses.

I do not deny you, your own choices in life. We are both accountable to our own choice.

Please know I do not attempt to persuade you either way. I offered my opinion to the question as to Why don't more churches follow the lead? And have followed by answering a request addressed to me

First of all there was no bible until about the 4th century. There were only scattered writings some called scripture, many of which conflicted with one another. Religious leaders of the time got together and decided some scriptures were "in" and that others were "out"(in terms of what they thought "god's word" was). Then later some other books got tossed (the apocrypha); yet, you sit here today and say your "bible" is the "word of god"? Who says it's the word of god, how do you know that? Your bible which consists of what?

You see it's all nonesense. There's no evidence for any of it. It's a fairytale.

[cadillac59]

Cadillac, your posst question has been answered by several people.

Most churches still follow the Bible, and so will not follow the Lutheran lead on this.

You should move this to the discussion board, as it is clear that you did not want an answer to a question, but an excuse for your sin.

If you do not believe the Bible, have no use for God, and are not going to go to church anywhere, why bother to ask the queston in the first place?

Looks like you are a troll.

Whether I go to church or not, or refuse to believe the bible was not the point. It was a proper question concerning the church in general. There are plenty of gay men and lesbians who would like a place in the church not only as congregants but also as clergy and it is a valid question to ask why they cannot serve as pastors and still have normal committed relationships like their hetero counterparts. I was asking the question for them not for myself since I wouldn't go to any church anyway.

[sndbay]

You see it's all nonesense. There's no evidence for any of it. It's a fairytale.

A scare tactic is manipulative words or actions which create a sense of fear, and these tactics are shown today as being funny. The reality of instinctive fear becomes useless if what is being said, and done is untrue.


"Don't Touch" "It's HOT" "You'll get Burnt"

Instinctively "I believe!" and from my experiences it is all true.

It becomes your choice. AND I pray you can experience the truth. Otherwise you can hurt alot of people.

[cadillac59]

A scare tactic is manipulative words or actions which create a sense of fear, and these tactics are shown today as being funny. The reality of instinctive fear becomes useless if what is being said, and done is untrue.


"Don't Touch" "It's HOT" "You'll get Burnt"

Instinctively "I believe!" and from my experiences it is all true.

It becomes your choice. AND I pray you can experience the truth. Otherwise you can hurt alot of people.

Instinctively I don't believe. Many people never believe, never have, and see the experiences of believers as nothing but self-deception.

You talk about hurting people? More people in history have been hurt by religion and for religious reasons than for any other. There are good people in the world who do good things, bad people who do bad things. But to make good people do bad things you need religion.

[sndbay]

You talk about hurting people? More people in history have been hurt by religion and for religious reasons than for any other.

Agree and who hurt those people? Do you think that when people of religion were hurt it was not the evilness that hurt them? Do you think today we/America fight good people or do you think we flight against evilness?

There are good people in the world who do good things, bad people who do bad things. But to make good people do bad things you need religion.

Oh come on, you can't really think this?

When we are faced with the evilness coming at us, do we need to defend ourselves? You see I feel God put man upon the earth to protect his family and love everyone. It would be wonderful if life on earth could be as the eternal life we are promised. But it is not, and evilness has been as God says, sown among us here on earth. That's why we have our instinctive nature to help us, and as an American, I feel we are a nation under God's power of protection "if we abid in HIS will. We can be the servants of God that help and bring protection to other nations of people.

This is really off thread.. I do pray for you, and care that your heart Has chosen to be blinded in love for God.

[cadillac59]

Agree and who hurt those people? Do you think that when people of religion were hurt it was not the evilness that hurt them? Do you think today we/America fight good people or do you think we flight against evilness?



Oh come on, you can't really think this?

When we are faced with the evilness coming at us, do we need to defend ourselves? You see I feel God put man upon the earth to protect his family and love everyone. It would be wonderful if life on earth could be as the eternal life we are promised. But it is not, and evilness has been as God says, sown among us here on earth. That's why we have our instinctive nature to help us, and as an American, I feel we are a nation under God's power of protection "if we abid in HIS will. We can be the servants of God that help and bring protection to other nations of people.

This is really off thread.. I do pray for you, and care that your heart Has chosen to be blinded in love for God.

I rather like and agree with what one of our founding fathers had to say about religion:

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.

The Age of Reason. Thomas Paine

Very well put I think. Religion, including yours, was set of (invented) to terrify and enslave mankind and monopolize power and profit. That's all the churches have ever done. Destroy the mind, tell people how to live and take their money.

[galveston]

I rather like and agree with what one of our founding fathers had to say about religion:

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.

The Age of Reason. Thomas Paine

Very well put I think. Religion, including yours, was set of (invented) to terrify and enslave mankind and monopolize power and profit. That's all the churches have ever done. Destroy the mind, tell people how to live and take their money.

It's sad that the church of your background never demonstrated to you what being a Christian is all about.

None are perfect because they are made up of humans, but some are a lot closer to the pattern than others.