[speechlesstx]

I invite you to substantiate both premises.Read the Commonwealth Fund report on healthcare in the United States. It substantiates both premises.

No, I asked you to substantiate it, specifically that "America has the worst system" and that Americans don't like our system. Explain, furnish quotes, links, etc.

We have a bad system, and without change, we are going bankrupt. That is a fact!

What is a fact is Medicare and Medicaid are going bankrupt, I believe to the tune of $26 trillion of unfunded mandates is what I read. How is Obamacare going to save Medicare and Medicaid while cutting costs, expanding benefits to everyone and without raising taxes on the middle class?

What's your answer? Let Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security die, and everyone fend for themselves. You won't have to worry about a war in the Middle East. You will have one right here, and it won't be Muslims you are fighting; it will be Americans.

You assume way too much about me, I prefer people NOT answer for me. Oh and, the scare tactics... love it.

[inthebox]

I invite you to substantiate both premises.

Read the Commonwealth Fund report on healthcare in the United States. It substantiates both premises. We have a bad system, and without change, we are going bankrupt. That is a fact! What's your answer? Let Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security die, and everyone fend for themselves. You won't have to worry about a war in the Middle East. You will have one right here, and it won't be Muslims you are fighting; it will be Americans.

I briefly looked at the report and the tables:

Lets look at hospital readmission rates.
I don't know the rates of COPD or CHF in other countries, but it is the nature of these chronic disease to take a natural course of steady step wise decline in the endstages of the disease. What cannot be measured or shown by economic metrics is how many admissions were delayed or prevented due to good chronic disease management.

A simple way of IMPROVING the STATISTICAL numbers on hospital readmission rates or rates of admissions from nursing homes would be for a greater percentage of these folks to be DNR and in hospice care.

If you are on supplemental oxygen round the clock due to chronic heart or lung disease, it may be better to keep you comfortable at the end and treat you with morphine, but that is a decision left to whom? The government? Or the doctor in consultation with the patient or power of attorney. Yes, some may question readmitting the same demented person from the nursing home with dehydration or urinary tract infections or infected bed sores, but that person is someone's spouse, or parent or grandparent. Nursing homes may send them to the hospital to die because they don't want there own numbers to look bad, or that person is still a "full code." The ER and the admitting doctor cannot exactly refuse admission.


Another metric NOT MENTIONED is what are the economic costs of malpractice, and how does that contribute to increasing costs?






G&P

[tomder55]

Yeah the President of the Canadian Medical Association obviously has no clue what she's talking about.

[excon]

yeah the President of the Canadian Medical Association obviously has no clue what she's talking about.

Hello tom:

Let me see. We've got Canadians who say they like their system... Then we've got right wing Americans who tell us the Canadians don't know what they're talking about...

ME?? I'm going to believe the people who actually participate in the system - not those who read about it.

excon

[speechlesstx]

Hello tom:

Lemme see. We've got Canadians who say they like their system.... Then we've got right wing Americans who tell us the Canadians don't know what they're talking about....

ME???? I'm gonna believe the people who actually participate in the system - not those who read about it.

That's just it ex, we've been criticized for listening to "right wing Americans who tell us the Canadians don't know what they're talking about," but this is the incoming president of the Canadian Medical Association saying their system is "imploding" and "unsustainable." Is she just some right-wing American, or is she in a position to know?

[ETWolverine]

Why is everyone talking about the Canadian system? Just about every western nation on earth except for the United States has national health care. How about Germany, England, Denmark, etc.? One would think that being so innovative, America could take to good points from each of the different systems and put together one that would top them all. Right now, America has the worst system, with highest costs, 50 million without access, and falling outcomes. If you buy the media BS about most Americans liking our system, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

First of all, can you name one health care system in any country that is NOT in financial trouble?

No, you can't, because they don't exist.

Can you name one health care system that doesn't have lines (queues) that force patients to wait LONGER than we wait for the same care here in the USA?

No, you can't, because they don't exist.

Can you name a single health care system that has BETTER PATIENT OUTCOMES than we get here in the USA?

No, you can't, because they don't exist.

Can you name a single health care system in which the government that runs that health care system has not limited access to care that we have normal access to, including medicines, procedures and diagnostic equipment?

No, you can't, because they don't exist.

So what points, exactly, should we be taking from these systems in order to improve our system without creating a negative effect within our system? Can you name one?

No, you can't, because they don't exist.

[excon]

Can you name one health care system that doesn't have lines (queues) that force patients to wait LONGER than we wait for the same care here in the USA?

No, you can't, because they don't exist.

Hello again, El:

Can you name one Canadian who isn't eligible to wait in line for medical care?? No you can't, because they don't exist..

Can you name one American who isn't eligible to wait in line for medical care?? Yup. We got 47 MILLION of them...

You tell me what's better. Oh, never mind. I don't think you have a clue.

excon

PS> By the way, it's easy to have short lines when you KEEP 47 MILLION people OUT of them...

[tickle]

yeah the President of the Canadian Medical Association obviously has no clue what she's talking about.

Don't put words in my mouth, I didn't say that. She was only one of many doctors attending a general meeting in Saskatoon on August l7th regarding HINI virus and how it will be handled by Canadians.

We are all wondering on this North American continent how it will effect everyone, so naturally healthcare comes into the picture as well.

I for one will not be waiting in line for a flu shot for this virus, niether will thousands of Canadians; we will be receiving it already paid for. I don't what you will be doing when you find out you have to pay out of pocket for the shot that will deter HINI virus to protect you.

You guys have been rehashing this issue for months now and not coming up with any pertinent information, just dragging up old stories.

Tick

[inthebox]

And what exactly is so bad about PAYING for something out of pocket?

Is it just healthcare that people expect NOT to pay for? How about food, clothing , or shelter, do people pay for these?

Maybe it is the fact that people DON'T pay for the actual cost of the service, that contributes greatly to overall healthcare costs.





G&P

[excon]

and what exactly is so bad about PAYING for something out of pocket?

Hello again, in:

It's not BAD, but it DOES mean that lots of people won't get the shots... I know YOU'RE a responsible adult, and you're going to pay to get immunized, but is EVERYBODY in your family as responsible as you?? Doesn't it trouble you knowing that your little nieces and nephews, who's parents didn't immunize them, are in the playground with kids who are exposed??

I know that I wouldn't like it... It's really a matter of SELF interest. That's a concept that should resonate with Republicans... It has nothing to do with being altruistic...

It's the same issue as granting illegal aliens drivers licenses... No, I have no desire to see that illegal aliens get where they're going... I don't care about them. But, I DO have an interest in my family driving on the roads with LICENSED and INSURED drivers...

It's kind of like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

excon

[tickle]

and what exactly is so bad about PAYING for something out of pocket?

Is it just healthcare that people expect NOT to pay for? How about food, clothing , or shelter, do people pay for these?

Maybe it is the fact that people DON'T pay for the actual cost of the service, that contributes greatly to overall healthcare costs.





G&P

Get off your soapbox. I have paid for my healthcare, by employee deductions since I was l8 years old (I am now 67 and on my way to a healthy 70 because of my healthcare system). Everyone paid that way... do you get it... we paid for the healthcare. Now individuals don't pay, but the employer pays for them. It WAS NOT EVER FREE

An irritated tick

[speechlesstx]

Can you name one American who isn't eligible to wait in line for medical care???? Yup. We got 47 MILLION of them....

No, we have 47 million who don't have health insurance, many of their own choosing. We don't have ANYONE ineligible for medical care.

[excon]

We don't have ANYONE ineligible for medical care.

Hello again, Steve:

If everyone is eligible for medical care, why would ANYONE buy insurance?

excon

[N0help4u]

Because the people that have insurance do not fall in the income guidelines for medical grants and other programs.

[excon]

Hello N0:

So the FREE medical care is only FREE as long as you fall within the income guidelines. If you don't, and you choose not to buy insurance, do you get this FREE medical care too? If you do, I ask again, why would anyone buy insurance?

If you don't, then you go without.

excon

[tomder55]

I think my food and housing is too expensive. I think the government should provide that to me for "free" .

[speechlesstx]

Hello again, Steve:

If everyone is eligible for medical care, why would ANYONE buy insurance?

excon

Have we as a country forgotten the purpose of insurance? Seems we have, it was not meant to pay for our every medical need, but to "insure" against catastrophic loss was it not? Those greedy insurance companies who dare to think they should be profitable to stay in business, and those butchers ripping out kid's tonsils and cutting off limbs unnecessarily so they can bill more have ruined all that haven't they?

I've asked several times and no one has been able to answer my question, who goes without medical care in this country?

[speechlesstx]

So the FREE medical care is only FREE as long as you fall within the income guidelines. If you don't, and you choose not to buy insurance, do you get this FREE medical care too? If you do, I ask again, why would anyone buy insurance?

You've actually stumbled on the problem with the government heavily subsidizing or providing such things for free. If we can get it for free why would we buy insurance? If the government will take care of me why should I take care of myself? If it's cheaper for the government to provide insurance for my employees why should I provide it? And that is the reason the public option will end private health insurance, you've just shown us how.

My question is, if someone CAN furnish their own insurance, CAN furnish their own food and housing, etc. why shouldn't they? I want able-bodied people to get off their a$$es and stop sucking the rest of us dry. Then we'd have a broader base of funding to take care of those who really DO need the help. I think that's a GOOD thing, much better than adding millions to the list for government handouts.

[excon]

Hello again, Steve:

How about this?? Don't you want to see American jobs return home? Don't you want to see a resurgence of the American car?? I do.

It ain't going to happen as long as GM spends more per car on HEALTH CARE, than it does on steel... THAT'S what they're doing.. Nope, it AIN'T going to happen. You, the apparent supporter of small business, want to strap them with costs their competitors don't have... Why would you do that?

excon

[tickle]

I think my food and housing is too expensive. I think the government should provide that to me for "free" .

That is a really intelligent and mature response.

Tick