[speechlesstx]

it's the kids you know, no savvy. the secret of Mcdonald's success is bigger car parks. your corner take away doesn't have that luxury and of course we are a very mobile society always going hither, thither and yon

That still doesn't make it our fault. You guys are the one's spending the bucks there and keeping them in business.

[andrewc24301]

Elliot:

Everyone is required to choose something. I'm not suggesting everyone follow my lead and live life the way I do. My lifestyle won't work for everyone. But if you are not required to choose something, then you are required to have a decision made for you.

You have lost me on one thing though.. how exactly did we get on this discussion from clunkers anyway? All I said was I thought it was wasteful to ruin all those good cars. The bottom line is about saving money, and once you have a car paid for, you save lots of money to the bank. Even enough to make up for fuel charges.

I'm not going to debate how to fix every problem in the world, there are people a lot smarter than me and still they can't even figure it all out. One thing is for certain, the system we have now is failing. And Obama better pray that his plans work, otherwise we are all going to be in big trouble.

[andrewc24301]

Okay, I see where it came from now...

Exactly. This is about moving cars, if you really want to reduce your carbon foot print, don't drive. Walk. Move out of the subburbs and closer to your job. You can have an old truck that gets 10 mpg, if you live around the corner from where you work, you will still burn less gas on the drive that someone who drives a hybrid 70 miles one way.

Common sence. Wanna save gas? Don't drive! It's not rocket science.

Oh, and America is all about hype. It's one thing we are still good at producing. And the funny part is, it's our biggest export, and the world can't get enough of it!

Okay, I stand by my post. It's accurate, however there are sacrifices you make, I have made them. It's a choice. Although the intent of the comment wasn't to step on a nerve.

Scooters are very fun to ride though...

[paraclete]

I understand the cash for clunkers concept. But the whole thing just seems so wasteful. To disable a completley good car, and reduce it to scrap and junk. It will surley create a slight supply and demand problem when these cars from the late 90's and early 2000's would have come into my market. (I buy my cars when they have exceeded 100,000 miles, normally for around $2,000 or less). I have yet to own a car that's year model was past 1997. 1994 seems to be a popular year for me latley. Eventually I will break the 2000 threshold, but thanks to this new big idea from DC, the pickings will be smaller.

I'm not convinced that this whole thing is about the enviorment. I feel it is meant to move cars out of showrooms and onto the streets. If it were really about the enviorment, then we'd be doing something about all these trucks on the interstates, and make better use of an alternative system. Such as rail. But not the old rail lines of the 1800's that our system uses today. And updated rail system, that can carry electricity to power the locomotives, simillar to a model rail line. Granted, the electricity to move the cars may be from coal fired power plants, but as time progresses, we will being finding cleaner sources of electricity.

Andy you would like it in New Zealand they used to have a law that all freight over 100 miles had to travel on rail and the trucking industry never recovered, the long distance roads over there are free of trucks, of course it is more expensive to live there.

You must travel a lot less that we do and have good weather I would expect a car to reach 100K in five years and be clapped out due to rust

Yes electric trains are more efficient but rail infurstructure can be very expensive and these days takes a lot of concrete which brings us back to manufacturing pollution

[paraclete]

Okay, I see where it came from now...



Okay, I stand by my post. It's accurate, however there are sacrifices you make, I have made them. It's a choice. Although the intent of the comment wasn't to step on a nerve.

Scooters are very fun to ride though...

Bring back the bicycle for city transport, solves the obesity problem too

[tomder55]

Clete ;good point .The US subsidizes a national rail service and it is a money loser . Across the country local mass transit faces the same problem even as the recession has made travel by rail and buses more popular than ever. In DC, the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority, is facing a $176 million budget gap at the same time their customer base is increasing . They are considering cut backs in service and personel . Other cities are considering eliminating routes and reducing frequencies include Denver, Phoenix, Baltimore, and San Diego. Many are raising fares making travel by rail less competitive.

Meanwhile I content that if the Volt and other electric plug in's ever did take off it would crash the grid. There are very few locations in the country that are increasing electric generating capacity;and very little of our generation is not fossil fuel based.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...wreck-the-grid

One possible alternative to supplement the electricity needed is being developed by Michelin tire. Their new “Active Wheel” concept would put an electric generator in the wheels of a hybrid capable of an output of 30 kilowatts of power—per wheel.

[paraclete]

Tom I cannot get excited at a car generating it's own power there is the law of thermodynmanics which basically says some energy is lost in closed system, you cannot get 100% efficiency, so ultimately it winds down to zero. Anything you get will be a small percentage of input

I also heard that 20% of your generation is nuclear so you could use that to charge the cars, a little more expensive than coal of course but fully green so exchange uranium for oil and make me rich

[andrewc24301]

Clete is correct, 30 kilowatts would be enough to power the car, however then what you have is a pepetural motion machine, which to date, is considered impossible. Everything must burn some kind of fuel to operate. There is no free lunch.

Consider the horse power that would be needed to turn 4 generators to produce a total of 120 kilowatts. (4 wheels) I'm sure it would be enough to stall the car.

It's the same concept of using a generator to power a motor to power a generator. Effiency is lost, and the machine stops.

It takes 746 watts to equal one horse power. A quick search of the internet reveals a hybird may produce about 175 hp, 175X746=130550 (130kw) Each 4 tires moving at full speed, full throttle, producing 30kw each, equals 120kw. Leaving you with about 10kw left over to power the car. 10kw/746= 13.40HP.

About the size of my riding mower. In other words, these generators would put a considerable drag on the car. Like towing the queen mary. In fact, I'd argue it would be better used as a breaking system in the snow...


I'd put my stock in solar and wind. Emphisis on solar. Nuclear isn't off the table as long as it's respected and built to the highest standard.

[andrewc24301]

All this doesn't even factor the inefficencies of the internal combustion engine which can loose up to 75% of its energy in heat lost.

I also realize that in my above post, at the end, you still have produced 130kw, but I argue that due to efficiencys in the car, engine, etc, you would erode any power gained just trying to keep the car moving along. There are people who have claimed to create a machine that generates more wattage per horse power. Some have claimed to produce several hundred kw from a single HP. Nobody has yet to prove it to the US patent office though. I wish I could remember the guys name, I'd provide a link. Looked into it a few years back.

After about a month of reserch, determined the guy was a fake.

[paraclete]

Andrew a few Years ago I had contact with an inventor who claimed that once he got the machine started he could produce electricity continuously. The output of his device was extremely small and he couldn't scale it up. Some things can be done in small scale prototypes but all they do is prove theories, the reality is a long way away and without megabucks of research and years of experimentation nothing happens. I expect Michellen's device is one of these, theoretically possible but not scalable otherwise we would be knee deep in free power by now. The guy I had contact with claimed he was drawing power from another dimension or something like that. Needless to say I didn't invest

[speechlesstx]

As far as I know it takes energy to make energy so nothing is going to be perfect. Michelin's idea sounds like it's worth considering to me.

[tomder55]

And of course I clearly said that the Michelin Active wheel was to "supplement " the electricity . In no way did I suggest that it would replace extenal sources.

As for the Chevy Volt ;at $40 grand I want a kick a$$ Bose sound system and an AC /heating system that works . Guess that's out of the question.

[tomder55]

Nuff said

NY Dealers Pull Out Of Clunkers Program - Automotive * US * News * Story - CNBC.com

[450donn]

Just heard that the NY auto dealers association has pulled out of this debacle. What does that say for Government control of anything?

[speechlesstx]

Yep, cash for clunkers is still working...

Here's one economic indicator that's flashing green: used-car prices.

Prices for second-hand cars took a hit late last year, along with the prices of many other assets. But since the start of this year, a combination of tight supplies of both new and used vehicles and higher demand from a frugal public have pushed average used-car prices to the highest levels in years, industry watchers say. Demand seems particularly strong for used SUVs, analysts say, reflecting lower gas prices.

That should be good news if you are selling or trading in a well-tended used vehicle over the next couple of years. It might not be so welcome if you are trying to buy one.

One widely followed measure of used-car prices, the 14-year-old Manheim Used Vehicle Value Index, will likely hit a record when data for September are released in early October, says Thomas Webb, chief economist for Manheim Consulting, a subsidiary of Cox Enterprises Inc.

What kinds of used vehicles are selling? All kinds, but particularly "gas guzzlers," says Katharine Kenny , vice president of investor relations for CarMax Inc. the big used-vehicle retailer based in Richmond, Va.

Let's see, people quit buying new cars so car makers cut production and cash for clunkers takes 700,000 used cars off the market, so used car prices may hit a record and what are people buying? Gas guzzlers. I love it, lol.

[galveston]

Yeah, and what happens when all those people who really couldn't afford a new car but bought one because of the subsidized down payment default and all those cars come back to the bank?

[excon]

Yeah, and what happens when all those people who really couldn't afford a new car but bought one because of the subsidized down payment default and all those cars come back to the bank?

Hello gal:

You know that shortage of cars in the used car market that Steve mentioned right above you?? It'll reverse that, for sure...

But, don't you see those vast empty lots that USED to house your local car dealer?? I'll bet the towns in Texas have more of 'em than Seattle has. There's a few live ones left, though, but they're on their last threads... I'll bet they only survived because of this program... Maybe you know a secretary, or a mechanic that works there. Isn't it BETTER to keep them open rather than board 'em up. You do know what boarded up stuff looks like, don't you? It looks like the ghetto. Do you want that?

Look, gal. I'm not saying that it won't turn into that anyway. I'm just saying there are results of this program that you can SEE, right in your home town, TODAY. On the other hand, boarding up your town is going to KILL it, for sure.

excon

[speechlesstx]

Yeah, and what happens when all those people who really couldn't afford a new car but bought one because of the subsidized down payment default and all those cars come back to the bank?

Yep, could be another problem.

[ETWolverine]

Excon,

So your solution is to bail out EVERYONE.

Keep them all afloat regardless of whether they are viable or not.

Don't let them fail, or else they might have to be... >gasp<... boarded up.

And in doing so, we make sure that instead of ONLY the business that not viable failing, we instead make sure to bring the rest of the economy to the point of failure too.

What a brilliant solution... kill the entire economy instead of just letting go of the parts that don't work and SHOULD fail.

As it so happens I have three failed used auto dealerships in my loan protfolio right now. The owners abandoned the properties and we foreclosed and took ownership of them.

Y'know what? All three properties have interested buyers looking to start their own dealerships. All three will end up sold to NEW owners. All three will become viable businesses again.

Instead of propping up bad businesses, we allowed them to fail on their own. Oh, we tried modifying the loan terms for the original owners, but they continued to be unable to maintain the business, and we let them go as painlessly as possible.

And the result will be new businesses to take their place.

The result of going out of business is not "boarding up the neighborhood". The result is new business with better capitalization, fewer liabilities, and a better chance of success.

Letting old, badly-run businesses go makes way for the NEWER, stronger businesses.

Elliot

[speechlesstx]

But, don't you see those vast empty lots that USED to house your local car dealer??? I'll bet the towns in Texas have more of 'em than Seattle has. There's a few live ones left, though, but they're on their last threads... I'll bet they only survived because of this program... Maybe you know a secretary, or a mechanic that works there. Isn't it BETTER to keep them open rather than board 'em up. You do know what boarded up stuff looks like, don't you? It looks like the ghetto. Do you want that?

Look, gal. I'm not saying that it won't turn into that anyway. I'm just saying there are results of this program that you can SEE, right in your home town, TODAY. On the other hand, boarding up your town is gonna KILL it, for sure.

Yeah, but I still think it's hilarious that after pushing all those fuel efficient vehicles the demand for gas guzzlers has gone sky high. The Goracle must be reeling from that news.