Check out some similar questions!

TGMcCallie · Aug 11, 2009, 10:58 AM

How is the best way to pull a #12 neutral and #12 ground insulated through 3/4 pvc conduit that already has 2 #12 black wires. I need to get rid of one of the black wires and replace it with the white neutral and green ground.

It has at least 3 90 degree ells.

Stratmando · Aug 11, 2009, 11:32 AM

Tie the new wires to black wire and Tape, wire lube will help greatly. Pull the one out and pull in new wires at the same time. This should be an easy pull(few wires in a large pipe), unless it is 4 turns, and a long pull.

TGMcCallie · Aug 11, 2009, 11:42 AM

It is about 30 feet long. Will that be a problem. PVC is 3/4

Stratmando · Aug 11, 2009, 11:43 AM

Should not be a problem, secure wires that are to remain so the don't get pulled out.

TGMcCallie · Aug 11, 2009, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Stratmando

Should not be a problem, secure wires that are to remain so the don't get pulled out.

How is best way to secure the extra black wire to the tape? Would wrapping it to the tape with black electrical tape be strong enough. I surely don't want it to come apart ald then loose the extra black wire completely. But what if I do what can I do. I will still have 1 black wire left to work with so I guess I could tie the white, black, and ground to the remaining black one and pull.

Advise me best way so the black wire and tape will not get separated and still have room for the wires to slide through the 3/4 in pvc. I plan on using a petroleum free grease.

tkrussell · Aug 11, 2009, 01:24 PM

Use only lube rated for wire pulling. This pull should not need any lube at all.

Stratmando · Aug 11, 2009, 01:47 PM

You need to make a loop on 1 black wire to be removed, then insert new wires through loop and fold back about 1 1/2", the black will have this same loop(folded back wire), twist to hold securley the black around itself, The tape over this connection, should not be a big Knot and should taper.

Missouri Bound · Aug 11, 2009, 05:51 PM

What's in the pipe now, just 2 #12's? You could pull one out and attach it with the new wires and pull all three with the one wire. Then you wouldn't be pulling wire against wire, just "new" pull. And strip the wires when you attach them for pulling, make the loops tight and secure with tape so the loops can't open during the pull... AND LUBE IT WELL!

TGMcCallie · Aug 11, 2009, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by Missouri Bound

What's in the pipe now, just 2 #12's? You could pull one out and attach it with the new wires and pull all three with the one wire. Then you wouldn't be pulling wire against wire, just "new" pull. And strip the wires when you attach them for pulling, make the loops tight and secure with tape so the loops can't open during the pull.....AND LUBE IT WELL!

Your method sounds better to me. I think I will give me more room by pulling out one of the black wires just leaving 1 wire in the 3/4 pvc. I will then secure a #14 stnded neutral and #14 stranded black and #12 stranded green ground wire to the black that was left in the line and pull all three lines back through the pvc with the remaining black one. This will give me proper wiring (#14 black, #14 white, #12 green all stranded) in the 3/4 conduit.

Yes, there is just 2 wires there now which are #12 solid core single wires (not romex). Both of these wires are black and one of them had been used to substitute for neutral (white). There is not a green ground wire at all in the conduit. The underwater pool lite was grounded by means of a ground rod under the diving board. They just ran a neutral wire out of the junction box and attached it to a ground rod that was driven down into the ground in deck under diving board. No ground went back to the proper breaker box.

I want to fix it properly and pull these black wires out and replace them with 1 each black, white, green stranded. I will then attach the green ground wire to the Hayward Pool Junction box that is mounted 4 inches above deck under the diving board. This will ground the light properly through the junction box.

Do I then attach the other end of the neutral coming from the new line to the neutral coming from feeder box into the secondary box and the green ground coming from the new line to the grounding screw in the secondary box.

The GFI is 20 amp and mounted in the Main breaker box in the garage. I have a #10 2 (solid) with ground feeding from it into a GE switch box where I tied the feeder neutral and the substitute neutral from the pool (which is black ) together with a wire nut. I placed the ground wire from the feeder line under the ground screw on this secondary switch box.

My light has been hooked up without a proper ground for 30 years and had no problem but since I have been getting my pool up to code as far as the pool pump and auto cleaner (both wired 220 volt) are concerned and this just leaves me with this pool light situation.

Am I correct that #14 with #12 as ground (all stranded) is OK for the pool light. Why does the ground have to be #12 when the hot line is #14. #14 stranded is so much easier to work with through pvc. I found out that #14 was good for 15 amps on a 20 amp GFI. I rewired pool pump and auto cleaner motors with #14 red/black/green out of a secondary breaker box which is also served by a #10 2 (solid) w/ground feeding off a 20 amp 220 GFI mounted in the main 200 amp panel in garage.
The only problem with this is that the #10 2 with ground feeder line from the main breaker box is not red/black/green but black/white/with uninsulated bare wire. I assume that is OK because none of my 220 circuits coming out of the main breaker box is red/black/green but all black/white/bare.

Thanks

Stratmando · Aug 12, 2009, 06:36 AM

For a Pool Light, I would Pull all # 12's.
Should be an easy pull. 3 wires in a 3/4" should go easily.

TGMcCallie · Aug 12, 2009, 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by Stratmando

For a Pool Light, I would Pull all # 12's.
Should be an easy pull. 3 wires in a 3/4" should go easily.

Sounds OK to me but don't know why you would need #12, will #14 not furnish enough volts?

I have been told by numerous people that I need first a #6 then a #8 green insulated ground. I just can't understand why you would need such a large size ground when it does not carry any voltage.

I have aksed several times and don't get explanation as to why such a large ground for a 110 volt light that will operate perfectly on #14 wire.

Thanks

Stratmando · Aug 12, 2009, 07:47 AM

We can't use 14 down her, if allowed in your area, your OK.
Most pool lights come with the cord attached.

TGMcCallie · Aug 12, 2009, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by Stratmando

We can't use 14 down her, if allowed in your area, your OK.
Most pool lights come with the cord attached.

The cord is attached from the niche in order for you to attach the light to the junction box. I am talking about the wiring from your light switch box to the junction box.

As far as what is allowed in my area, they could care less. We don't even have code enforcers.

tkrussell · Aug 12, 2009, 08:37 AM

Just a few comments on this.

Hmm, this simple question sure took a odd turn.

If there are no code enforcers, how do you know what code to bring the pool up to?

Seems the State of Georgia adopted the NEC 2008 with the following amendments:
http://www.dca.state.ga.us/developme..._effective.pdf

Oddly enough, there are areas that take money for permits, but do not enforce the codes:

http://www.dca.state.ga.us/developme...stcodesmap.pdf

With a ground rod connected to a wet niche fixture neutral? I guess codes are not enforced there. Scary.

Where did you learn this:
I found out that #14 was good for 15 amps on a 20 amp GFI.

If the breaker is a 20 amp, then all wire related to that branch circuit needs to be #12. If you want to use #14, then must be a 15 amp breaker

A ground wire is not for voltage, but sized to carry amperage, which is what will trip a circuit breaker in the event of a fault.

#14 for the pool pump? What size HP?

All equipment grounding conductors supplying pool equipment must be insulated, and in conduit.

The bonding conductor, that connects all metal within five feet of the pool water, needs to be min #8 copper, solid, can be bare or insulated.

This can all be reviewed in Article 680 of the NEC 2008 code:
http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/AboutTheCodes.asp?DocNum=70&cookie%5Ftest=1

TGMcCallie · Aug 12, 2009, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by tkrussell

Just a few comments on this.

Hmm, this simple question sure took a odd turn.

If there are no code enforcers, how do you know what code to bring the pool up to?

Seems the State of Georgia adopted the NEC 2008 with the following amendments:
http://www.dca.state.ga.us/developme..._effective.pdf

Oddly enough, there are areas that take money for permits, but do not enforce the codes:

http://www.dca.state.ga.us/developme...stcodesmap.pdf

With a ground rod connected to a wet niche fixture neutral? I guess codes are not enforced there. Scary.

Where did you learn this:
I found out that #14 was good for 15 amps on a 20 amp GFI.

If the breaker is a 20 amp, then all wire related to that branch circuit needs to be #12. If you want to use #14, then must be a 15 amp breaker

A ground wire is not for voltage, but sized to carry amperage, which is what will trip a circuit breaker in the event of a fault.

#14 for the pool pump? What size HP?

All equipment grounding conductors supplying pool equipment must be insulated, and in conduit.

The bonding conductor, that connects all metal within five feet of the pool water, needs to be min #8 copper, solid, can be bare or insulated.

This can all be reviewed in Article 680 of the NEC 2008 code:
NFPA 70: National Electrical Code®

************************************************** ************************

The pool pump motor is 1 HP and wired for 110 it pulls 15 amps but wired for 220 it pulls 7.5 amps. When I was getting the wire from Lowe's the man told me and also showed me a chart that showed 1 HP motors on 220 that pulled 7.5 amps could use #14 wire since #14 is rated at 15 amps and he said that it would even go 5 amps higher if needed.

This is where I got the information.

All my equipment supplying the pool is insulated wire and also in water tight plastic conduit and fittings which I also got from Home Depot.

I don't have my pool light wired properly yet but will in a few days as I am going to pull a new line from main meter box of #12 black,white, green and bare copper.

I just wanted to know what code was in Georgia even though my County Walker does not enforce the code I still want to be in code so it will be safe.

The equipment has been wired wrong by the pool contractor for 30 years and I am trying to get it up to snuff.

I still don't know why the ground wire has to be larger in size than the lines carrying the 220 voltage. Can you explain that to me?

tkrussell · Aug 12, 2009, 04:17 PM

Correct on the size wire and breaker for the 1 HP motor. Just that electricians will always use no smaller than #12 for both the feed and equipment ground.

The clerk is referring to Article 430, Motors, and a breaker can be larger than the wire rating, for motors. Note, this is a very special condition that allows this.

And I don't generally tell laypeople this.

All general wiring must be 15 amp breaker for #14 wire.

But I suggest you don't take a clerks advice unless he/she has a license for that trade.

On the larger equipment grounding conductor being #12, see Section 680.21 (A) (1).

" shall contain an insulated copper equipment grounding conductor........not smaller than #12."

This #12 is the means of grounding the bonding conductor of the pool to the grounding system at the service. This is a very important conductor.

Sorry, this is not double talk, but the proper technical. Legal, wording.