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    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #101

    Jul 11, 2009, 08:50 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    The only word about it was "Don't" and we weren't sure what we weren't supposed to not do.
    Hello Carol:

    And, after you did it, you said, "that couldn't have been what we weren't supposed to do, could it"?

    excon
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    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #102

    Jul 11, 2009, 09:10 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello Carol:

    And, after you did it, you said, "that couldn't have been what we weren't supposed to do, could it"?

    excon
    I was a virginal bride, so something worked. Stupidity helps.
    ETWolverine's Avatar
    ETWolverine Posts: 934, Reputation: 275
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    #103

    Jul 12, 2009, 07:56 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello in:

    Where, besides your church, did you learn that sex education doesn't work???? It works just fine. Could it work better? Sure.

    excon
    Yep. Sex ed works. Kids who take sex ed know about sex.

    And go know... what they learn is what they use. And it results in more teen pregnancies, more STD spread, and more abortions. Whereas kids who don't know about sex tend to have less of it, at least from an historical perspective, resulting in fewer pregnancies and fewer cases of STD spread.

    Yep, sex ed works. It doesn't stop the problem of teen sex. But those kids are very well educated in how to have sex. Not sure that's better, though. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's not.

    As for where else we have learned that sex education doesn't work... let's see.

    There's researchers Robert Rector and Rebeca Hagelin who write for the Heritage Foundation.

    There's Barbara Dafoe Whitehead of the theAtlantic.com, who wrote this article: The Failure of Sex Education - 94.10

    There's this article in Rense.com that first appeared on Yahoo: Teen Sex Education A Total Failure - Study

    There's this article from the John Birch Society. - Why Sex Education is Doomed to Failure

    There are plenty of places besides churches that say that sex ed doesn't work... and not just from a moral standpoint, but from a statistical standpoint as well.

    Sorry, excon, but your claim that sex ed is frowned upon only by the Church and only for moral reasons is pure BS. Statistically speaking, sex ed in schools has failed and failed miserably. It accomplishes NONE of its stated goals.

    Elliot
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    #104

    Jul 12, 2009, 08:33 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    And go know... what they learn is what they use. And it results in more teen pregnancies, more STD spread, and more abortions.
    Hello again, El:

    I don't know what happens to you but, sometimes your politics gets in the way of your common sense. Your position is, that if kids didn't learn about sex in school, they wouldn't do it.

    I must say, that of all the wacky things you say, this is, by far, one of the wackiest.

    excon
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    #105

    Jul 12, 2009, 08:44 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, El:

    I dunno what happens to you but, sometimes your politics gets in the way of your common sense. Your position is, that if kids didn't learn about sex in school, they wouldn't do it.

    I must say, that of all the wacky things you say, this is, by far, one of the wackiest.

    excon

    Statistics back it up. History backs it up. YOUR OWN ANSWERS will back it up, if you are willing to be honest about it. (Which I doubt.)

    Answer these questions honestly:

    When were there more teen pregnancies, now or in the 30s - 60s?

    When did sex ed in school start?

    Based on the prior two questions, did the advent of sex ed prevent teen pregnancies?

    The answers are very simple, excon. Even you can get them right.

    At BEST, sex ed has had no effect on teen pregnancies. At worst, it has had a hand in increasing the number of teen pregnancies. Either way it is a failure.

    Whereas, based on the statistics, kids in the 30s - 60s without sex ed in school were less likely to have sex and get each other pregnant.

    You can try to minimize it all you want. The data is out there for you and the rest of the world to review.

    But you've made up your mind and refuse to be confused by facts.

    Elliot
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    ETWolverine Posts: 934, Reputation: 275
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    #106

    Jul 12, 2009, 08:52 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, El:

    I dunno what happens to you but, sometimes your politics gets in the way of your common sense. Your position is, that if kids didn't learn about sex in school, they wouldn't do it.

    I must say, that of all the wacky things you say, this is, by far, one of the wackiest.

    excon
    My position is that when we lived in a time where kids didn't learn about it, they were less likely to do it, resulting in fewer pregnancies, fewer STDs and fewer abortions.

    And now that we live in a time when they do learn about it, they are doing it more, resulting in more pregnancies, more STD spread and more abortions.

    These are statistical facts. They aren't "my position". It is simple fact.

    My position is that BASED ON THIS SIMPLE FACT, sex ed is a failure in its stated goals of preventing sex among teens, preventing teen pregnancies, preventing STD spread and preventing abortions. And based on that failure, we need to change what we are doing to day to something that we know worked in the past.

    You claim that my position on global warming constitutes "ignoring the facts". I'd say that your position on sex ed is ignoring the facts and the failures and the problems caused by sex ed.

    YOU are the one blinded by political position, excon. You won't even acknowledge that the statistics on teen sex, teen pregnancy and teen STDs became greater at the same time that sex ed was introduced to the American public school system. THAT is the sign of someone blinded by politics.

    Elliot
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    #107

    Jul 12, 2009, 08:55 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    Answer these questions honestly:

    When were there more teen pregnancies, now or in the 30s - 60s?

    When did sex ed in school start?

    Based on the prior two questions, did the advent of sex ed prevent teen pregnancies?
    Hello again, El:

    Let me see if I understand your logic... If you see stars, it must be night... But, if you DON'T see stars, it must NOT be night. Ergo, sex education - ballooning teen pregnancy rate - must be it!

    You rightwingers really don't know much about sex, do you?

    excon
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #108

    Jul 12, 2009, 09:09 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    When were there more teen pregnancies, now or in the 30s - 60s?
    Back then, there was the fear factor. Ignorance too. Books, magazines, the limited amount of TV shows that were on, and movies didn't talk about sex except maybe there was a veiled reference now and then. Girls especially didn't have a clue about sex. The girls who did (we called them the "sluts" but not sure why, but they sure looked like "bad girls") hung out on the street corner across from the high school and smoked with the guys with greasy slicked-back hair and probably a ducktail (a la Fonzie?) whom we called the "hoods." Most of them wore black leather jackets with lots of zippers and combed their hair a lot.

    Our parents told us not to be like the sluts, not to have sex. We didn't own black leather jackets with zippers plus we didn't know what "sex" was, so we figured we were okay. "Sex" sounded nasty, like nothing fun or good for us like Cheerios was, so we did our Latin translations and memorized the geometric proofs to stay busy.

    Our parents knew where we were 99% of the time, and, if we were out and about shopping or at a movie, we had to check in (had to find a pay phone) if the situation changed somehow. My mother told me my minister father would have to quit the ministry and our family would have to go into hiding if I ever got pregnant. I didn't know how one got pregnant, so I said "okay" in a muffled voice and disappeared quickly up to my room to do homework. I certainly didn't want those bad things to happen by doing something I didn't know about. For a long time, I thought kissing was what got a girl pregnant, so I didn't allow that. Holding hands seemed innocent enough, and it didn't make me pregnant. Whew! It was trial and error, like science class.

    I wish I had had been taught what "sex" is. That would have made me a less fearful teen who sublimated like crazy. A good dose of sex education, factual with pictures and a lack of embarrassed explanation, along with the moral guidelines that were implicit somewhere in the fear factor stuff, would have been exactly what I needed and would have been a lot better than what I got.

    Therefore, sex education + moral guidelines - fear factor = good.
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #109

    Jul 12, 2009, 09:22 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    I wish I had had been taught what "sex" is. That would have made me a less fearful teen who sublimated like crazy.
    Hello again, El:

    I UNDERSTAND what you're saying. If kids don't know about sex, they won't do it. I'm just saying that you're completely bonkers, and that what YOU'RE saying makes absolutely no sense on its face.

    To wit: If what you say is true, that people have to be instructed about what goes where, BEFORE they'll actually PUT you know what and you know where, we wouldn't be here.

    Your politics are BLINDING you to an NON contravertable fact. Poor, poor conservatives.

    excon
    ETWolverine's Avatar
    ETWolverine Posts: 934, Reputation: 275
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    #110

    Jul 12, 2009, 09:40 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Back then, there was the fear factor. Ignorance too.
    Absolutely true. There was the fear factor around sex, and that fear factor kept kids out of trouble.

    So... do you think that eliminating that fear factor by teaching kids about sex has been effective at keeping teen sex and teen pregnancies low? Or has it had a negative effect on teen sex statistics?

    From my point of view familiarity breeds contempt, and teens now have contempt for the fears that they OUGHT TO HAVE about sex.

    Books, magazines, the limited amount of TV shows that were on, and movies didn't talk about sex except maybe there was a veiled reference now and then. Girls especially didn't have a clue about sex. The girls who did (we called them the "sluts" but not sure why, but they sure looked like "bad girls") hung out on the street corner across from the high school and smoked with the guys with greasy slicked-back hair and probably a ducktail (a la Fonzie?) whom we called the "hoods." Most of them wore black leather jackets with lots of zippers and combed their hair a lot.

    Our parents told us not to be like the sluts, not to have sex. We didn't own black leather jackets with zippers plus we didn't know what "sex" was, so we figured we were okay. "Sex" sounded nasty, like nothing fun or good for us like Cheerios was, so we did our Latin translations and memorized the geometric proofs to stay busy.
    Hey... don't be dissin' my Cheerios.:rolleyes::p

    Our parents knew where we were 99% of the time, and, if we were out and about shopping or at a movie, we had to check in (had to find a pay phone) if the situation changed somehow. My mother told me my minister father would have to quit the ministry and our family would have to go into hiding if I ever got pregnant. I didn't know how one got pregnant, so I said "okay" in a muffled voice and disappeared quickly up to my room to do homework. I certainly didn't want those bad things to happen by doing something I didn't know about. For a long time, I thought kissing was what got a girl pregnant, so I didn't allow that. Holding hands seemed innocent enough, and it didn't make me pregnant. Whew! It was trial and error, like science class.

    I wish I had had been taught what "sex" is. That would have made me a less fearful teen who sublimated like crazy. A good dose of sex education, factual with pictures and a lack of embarrassed explanation, along with the moral guidelines that were implicit somewhere in the fear factor stuff, would have been exactly what I needed and would have been a lot better than what I got.

    Therefore, sex education + moral guidelines - fear factor = good.
    But fear of those things happening to you kept you from going there. You stayed a good girl, and you didn't get pregnant. So, for whatever reason, the fear factor worked. You never became a negative statistic. As much as you might PERSONALLY wish to have known more about sex, as a general rule, not knowing about it, and being fearful of it is what kept you from doing something bad.

    A generation later, things changed. Kids got sex ed in school, and so were more knowledgeable. But the schools left the moral guidelines out of this sex education, and because sex ed included classes about abortion and contraception, the fear factor was gone too. With no moral guidelines and no fear factor, all that was left was knowledge of how to do it. The resultant equation for kids today is:

    Sex ed - moral guidelines - fear factor = teen sex + teen pregnancies + teen abortion + STD spread.

    Whereas when you grew up the equation was:

    Moral guidelines + fear factor - sex ed = no sex + confusion

    Frankly, that equation has a better result than the one kids today are getting. There's nothing wrong with a little confusion. You managed to survive it, and so did most of your peers. And at least you didn't get pregnant.

    BTW, boys were just as clueless about sex when you were growing up as girls were. Don't think otherwise. Boys just talked a better game.

    Elliot
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    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #111

    Jul 12, 2009, 09:59 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, El:

    I UNDERSTAND what you're saying. If kids don't know about sex, they won't do it. I'm just saying that you're completely bonkers, and that what YOU'RE saying makes absolutely no sense on its face.

    To wit: If what you say is true, that people have to be instructed about what goes where, BEFORE they'll actually PUT you know what and you know where, we wouldn't be here.

    Your politics are BLINDING you to an NON contravertable fact. Poor, poor conservatives.

    excon
    Yes, back then I was a child of VERY conservative parents. And there were kids who "did it." Sharilyn did it with Jacques in her parents' rec room, and Sharilyn's parents had warned her too (were pillars of our congregation). We tried to find out what it was they did. Sherilyn was coy, but she did mention Jacques used a condom. (We didn't know what that was, but it must have worked because Sherilyn never got pregnant.)

    It was the girls who were ignorant and fearful, most too scared to experiment (the pregnancy thing, you know, and families having to go into hiding); the guys tried like crazy to teach us in the hay lofts and in the cornfields. The guys were farmers' sons so they knew stuff. Jacques knew stuff too, but he wasn't a farmer's son. He was from France and had a neat accent.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #112

    Jul 12, 2009, 10:04 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    A generation later, things changed. Kids got sex ed in school, and so were more knowledgeable. But the schools left the moral guidelines out of this sex education
    True, but the media were the bigger culprits. Sex ed at Lutheran grade school and public high school plus moral guidelines (with discussion) at home would have been the ideal.

    Don't blame sex ed. Blame the parents and the breakdown of the family.
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    ETWolverine Posts: 934, Reputation: 275
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    #113

    Jul 12, 2009, 10:16 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, El:

    Lemme see if I understand your logic.... If you see stars, it must be night... But, if you DON'T see stars, it must NOT be night. Ergo, sex education - ballooning teen pregnancy rate - must be it!

    You rightwingers really don't know much about sex, do you?

    excon
    I'm sitting here trying to figure out how you can compare what I said to your ridiculous comments about stars and night.

    What I said was: When there was no sex ed, there was less teen sex. Now that there is MORE sex ed, there is more teen sex. You can't see the connection between the two? It's seems to me that YOU are the one missing the stars and the night... whatever the heck that means.

    I also happen to know that in Yeshivas, Orthodox Jewish religious private schools, where sex ed is NOT taught (purely for religious reasons), the incidence of teen sex and teen pregnancies approaches ZERO. Orthodox Jewish women tend to go to their marriages as virgins more often than not. We Orthodox Jews generally don't have "shotgun weddings" because some girl got pregnant. Which seems to be another indicator that when there is no sex ed, there is much less teen sex.

    There tends to be another factor at play here... Many --- not all---Yeshivas tend to be sticklers about making sure that the students don't watch TV or see movies. So the kids also don't have the outside sexual influences that other kids normally get from the media. But that actually proves my point all the more... the less that kids are exposed to sexual influences like sex ed or TV/Movies, the lower the chances of them having premarital sex.

    I know you don't like to hear it, but the statistical evidence can't be ignored. Even in modern society, when there is no sex ed (and limited sexual influence from the media), there is less teen sex.

    Elliot
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    ETWolverine Posts: 934, Reputation: 275
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    #114

    Jul 12, 2009, 10:20 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    True, but the media were the bigger culprits. Sex ed at Lutheran grade school and public high school plus moral guidelines (with discussion) at home would have been the ideal.

    Don't blame sex ed. Blame the parents and the breakdown of the family.

    One more point excon,

    Even if you argue that sex ed DOESN'T cause teen pregnancy, sex ed is STILL a failure, because it clearly isn't PREVENTING teen pregnancy. It is either a failure because it is the cause of the problem, or it is a failure at its own stated goal of being the CURE for the problem. Either way, it fails.

    And you can't seem to find any evidence that what I say isn't true. There's no statistical information to back up your position and you know it.

    Elliot
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    #115

    Jul 12, 2009, 10:31 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    Absolutely true. There was the fear factor around sex, and that fear factor kept kids out of trouble.
    I didn't want to be afraid. Had I known stuff, I would have behaved. I had that moral compass in me.
    BTW, boys were just as clueless about sex when you were growing up as girls were. Don't think otherwise. Boys just talked a better game.
    No, the boys knew stuff. They knew how to push our buttons and ring our chimes. (My first kiss was magical; I can still feel my toes curl.) Like I said, they were farmers' sons, but were too polite to share the details of what they knew. They knew we would be even more scared ("You're going to do WHAT?"), so they worked mostly with our buttons and chimes. There was no alcohol or drugs, just apple cider on well-supervised hayrides.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
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    #116

    Jul 12, 2009, 10:33 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    Even if you argue that sex ed DOESN'T cause teen pregnancy, sex ed is STILL a failure, because it clearly isn't PREVENTING teen pregnancy.
    But it would work if it were taught correctly.
    Skell's Avatar
    Skell Posts: 1,863, Reputation: 514
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    #117

    Jul 12, 2009, 04:30 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    I'm sitting here trying to figure out how you can compare what I said to your ridiculous comments about stars and night.

    What I said was: When there was no sex ed, there was less teen sex. Now that there is MORE sex ed, there is more teen sex. You can't see the connection between the two? It's seems to me that YOU are the one missing the stars and the night... whatever the heck that means.

    I also happen to know that in Yeshivas, Orthodox Jewish religious private schools, where sex ed is NOT taught (purely for religious reasons), the incidence of teen sex and teen pregnancies approaches ZERO. Orthodox Jewish women tend to go to their marriages as virgins more often than not. We Orthodox Jews generally don't have "shotgun weddings" because some girl got pregnant. Which seems to be another indicator that when there is no sex ed, there is much less teen sex.

    There tends to be another factor at play here... Many --- not all---Yeshivas tend to be sticklers about making sure that the students don't watch TV or see movies. So the kids also don't have the outside sexual influences that other kids normally get from the media. But that actually proves my point all the more... the less that kids are exposed to sexual influences like sex ed or TV/Movies, the lower the chances of them having premarital sex.

    I know you don't like to hear it, but the statistical evidence can't be ignored. Even in modern society, when there is no sex ed (and limited sexual influence from the media), there is less teen sex.

    Elliot
    I see your connection. But we isn't really just talking about orthodox jewish kids are we? What about the kids who's parents don't control everything that enters their lives? There's LOTS of them. How do we prevent sex from entering their lives? Not going to happen. Therefore they need to be taught about it from someone in a position of responsibility. If it ain't a parent then it needs to be someone.

    Perhaps its unfortunate but not all the kids in the world live in the same little Jewish bubble that you and your kids live in. Not even close.

    Your connection that NO Sex ed means NO teen sex way oversimplifies the issue. You even acknowledge in your post above that there are a helluva lot more external influences in children's lives these days. To simply say that the cause of teen sex is sex ed itself is absurd.
    Skell's Avatar
    Skell Posts: 1,863, Reputation: 514
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    #118

    Jul 12, 2009, 04:37 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    One more point excon,

    Even if you argue that sex ed DOESN'T cause teen pregnancy, sex ed is STILL a failure, because it clearly isn't PREVENTING teen pregnancy. It is either a failure because it is the cause of the problem, or it is a failure at its own stated goal of being the CURE for the problem. Either way, it fails.

    And you can't seem to find any evidence that what I say isn't true. There's no statistical information to back up your position and you know it.

    Elliot
    So what's your answer?? Just stop talking about sex to teenagers and they'll stop having it? That's it?

    And for those that do, God will sort it all out I suppose??

    C'mon Elliot... You can't see any merit in today's society to teaching kids of a certain age about the workings of their body AND sex?

    Your solution may have worked 60 years ago and it may work in the utopia your kids grow up in, but in reality it's just not going to happen.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
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    #119

    Jul 12, 2009, 04:53 PM

    Quote Originally Posted by ETWolverine
    When there was no sex ed, there was less teen sex
    Methinks you are railing about the wrong thing.

    With the increase in teen sex, there was:
    * increased TV time and more sitcoms that got more and more ribald in a race for ratings
    * increasing numbers of magazines devoted to Boomer teens
    * the population increased (1946-1964 especially)
    * civil rights happened which opened up individual rights
    * "me generation" flowered (egoism encouraged by TV and movies)
    * women got jobs outside the home and jobs could be found with hours 24/7
    * family suppertime disappeared (members working variety of shifts, thus intro of TV dinners)
    * teens got jobs at growing number of fast-food restaurants (new concept) and could afford their own cars (and were suddenly mobile)
    * small-town and farm life began to steadily disappear as people moved to the cities (better-paying jobs) and farms became suburbs (where cars were necessary)

    All of the above (and more) led to increased teen sex, sex ed or not. In fact, sex ed was begun to combat the sexual revolution.
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    #120

    Jul 12, 2009, 05:02 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Methinks you are railing about the wrong thing.

    With the increase in teen sex, there was:
    * increased tv time and more sitcoms that got more and more ribald in a race for ratings
    * increasing numbers of magazines devoted to Boomer teens
    * the population increased (1946-1964 especially)
    * civil rights happened which opened up individual rights
    * "me generation" flowered (egoism encouraged by tv and movies)
    * women got jobs outside the home and jobs could be found with hours 24/7
    * family suppertime disappeared (members working variety of shifts, thus intro of tv dinners)
    * teens got jobs at growing number of fast-food restaurants (new concept) and could afford their own cars (and were suddenly mobile)
    * small-town and farm life began to steadily disappear as people moved to the cities (better-paying jobs) and farms became suburbs (where cars were necessary)

    All of the above (and more) led to increased teen sex, sex ed or not. In fact, sex ed was begun to combat the sexual revolution.
    Exactly! Its not as simple as Elliot would have us believe.

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