[tickle]

So, you live in Toronto? Not at all the same as in small town, Canada. I have worked in plenty of small towns in Alberta and BC where health care is non existent. Clinics are on a one or two days a week ration because there is not enough doctors and nurses to staff them or there is simply not enough money to go around. And how about an air ambulance ride to the hospital? Nope! Too expensive. Get yourself to the hospital which in many cases can be 6 hours by car away. You work in one aspect and in one region of a very large country that takes 56% of a persons gross income just to provide minimal benefits to some. Not my type of rationing idea.

Sorry to burst your bubble, 450donn, I live in Cobourg Ontario (um, small town Ontario) a two hour drive from central Toronto. We have a first class hospital with MRI, cancer unit, and everything else one could possibly want. If it isn't here, it is in Kingston Ontario, l hour away, or Peterborough l/2 hour away. And yes we have a helipad in Cobourg Ontario. Red Cross work the same way in Toronto and vicinity bringing follow up care to senior citizens, new mothers and all people in between, all covered by OHIP.

Tick

[cozyk]

sorry to burst your bubble, 450donn, I live in Cobourg Ontario (um, small town Ontario) a two hour drive from central Toronto. We have a first class hospital with MRI, cancer unit, and everything else one could possibly want. If it isnt here, it is in Kingston Ontario, l hour away, or Peterborough l/2 hour away. And yes we have a helipad in Cobourg Ontario. Red Cross work the same way in Toronto and vicinity bringing follow up care to senior citizens, new mothers and all people in between, all covered by OHIP.

tick

Some people are so determined to tell you why you should not be happy with your system but they can't. Every attempt fails miserably. Why do I think that is so funny? I must be warped in some way. Anyhoo, my daughter is returning from Orleans, Ontario tomorrow. She will eventually be living there full time. You familiar with it?

[tickle]

The links I am giving are not polls they are real life stories on how people were made to wait for life threatening problems and many ended up dying before they could get care.

I have heard many stories from the people themselves besides the ones on the internet.

Natasha Richardson came off the slopes saying she was okay and didn't need medical attention. Her family has mega bucks and her husband was in Toronto making a movie. She refused care. I read the stories in my paper as it all happened. I don't know about the other ones, no help, I never heard of them before, and I read three papers in the morning sitting in my front home in small town ontario with a worldclass hospital with a helipad. Okay, so I still say you don't have a leg to stand on, anyone of you, with your nitpicking.

I am off this board only because it goes around in circles. You mention Natasha Richardson, who is long gone and that was, what last year.

You will never have socialized medicine,no help, you don't have a Tommy Douglas who started it in Canada, fought for it, gave even immigrants a new lease on life for basic health care with minimal deductions from their pay cheques in l920 Canada. I think I paid l5 dollars a month when I first started working 40 years ago. It isn't deducted from my pay cheque any longer because I am a senior citizen on Old age security and Canada Pension.

I don't know what the fuss is about. You don't have health care, or you do. Who cares what way you get it as long as it works for someone.

Tick

[tickle]

Some people are so determined to tell you why you should not be happy with your system but they can't. Every attempt fails miserably. Why do I think that is so funny? I must be warped in some way. Anyhoo, my daughter is returning from Orleans, Ontario tomorrow. She will eventually be living there full time. You familiar with it?

Yes, of course famiiliar with it; part of Ottawa, Ontario. It is a six hour drive from where I live in Cobourg, Ontario. Good hospitals, a university town and hub of Canada. It is our capital. All of our basic military personnel live there, Navy, Army, Air Force, etc.

Tick

[JudyKayTee]

I re-interate. As a Canadian I dont have any problem with my healthcare system. My son had an expensive heart operation 7 years ago with all expenses paid, by one of the best cardiac speclalists in the country, Dr. Erwin Wigle, Toronto General Hospital, who received the order of Canada three years ago. I have diabetes and my care is ultra, I couldnt wish for better. I work for Canadian Red Cross, senior clients all are direct recipients of good care.

What problems would you be referring to, no help?

tick

My husband had three heart attacks. Each time his roommate in the US was a Canadian citizen who came to the US because he/she could not get the needed surgery scheduled in Canada within a reasonable period. One of his roommates waited 8 months for a consultation with one of the "best cardiac specialists" in Canada.

I don't know if this is typical but it was frightening.

[JudyKayTee]

I dont know what the fuss is about. You dont have health care, or you do. Who cares what way you get it as long as it works for someone.

tick

I think the fuss is because it doesn't "work" for everyone. Both countries need health care that does work for everyone.

[tickle]

I think the fuss is because it doesn't "work" for everyone. Both countries need health care that does work for everyone.

Mine works for me and it works for my clients. That is all I know and that is what is important to me.

Thanks for your import Judy, your input is always appreciated and well thought out.

Tick:cool:

[N0help4u]

Yeah I know Natasha was an exception that was not the health cares fault, but many people do have these stories of being placed on a waiting list where they die waiting.
The USA gets many of the people who can afford to come here for their surgery because they know they will die otherwise.

I can give you hundreds of links to hundreds of stories but this one was someone I knew that died waiting. Any body that knew him can tell you he died because he had to wait too many months before he got his surgery.
Obituary: Tom Green / Christian television program producer




Also many people like me if we really needed immediate health care could get Hill Burton or some other assistance so I don't see a need to totally reform health care to socialized medicine. Maybe make it more easily accessible to people who don't qualify for anything because they make a little over the poverty level.

[NeedKarma]

I can give you hundreds of links to hundreds of stories

As can we about people who have suffered due to failures in the US healthcare system. That doesn't bring us any closer to a solution. Just look on this board about people asking questions that they should be asking their doctors, those people are mostly americans who, for some reason, cannot get to see a doctor.

[ETWolverine]

NK ANd Tickle,

Yes, there are many cases where health care in the USA has failed people. But please keep in mind WHAT IT WAS THAT FAILED.

In most cases I have read about, the failure in the US system was because these people didn't have private insurance and were reliant on government intervention through Medicare, Medicaid or the VA system... and the government systems failed to cover the gaps.

Private insurance didn't fail them because these people never had private insurance to begin with. Private insurance did exactly what it was supposed to do... cover those who paid for it. There was no failure in the private system.

Or, if there was a failure in the private system, the government systems are supposed to kick in, and they didn't.

The failure was in the GOVERNMENT systems that were supposed to help those most in need of coverage and didn't do so. That is what Medicare and Medicaid were designed to do, and in the cases cited, it failed to do so.

So, again, if the private insurance system did exactly what it was supposed to do and covered the people it was supposed to cover (the 85-95% of the US population who pay for it), and government insurance FAILED to cover those it was supposed to cover (the 5-15% not covered by private insurance), why would we want to put our trust in the system that failed? Especially if, when looking at statistical data from other countries, we find that the larger and more powerful the government system, the more chance of failures within that system.

Elliot

[ETWolverine]

Also many people like me if we really needed immediate health care could get Hill Burton or some other assistance so I don't see a need to totally reform health care to socialized medicine. Maybe make it more easily accessible to people who don't qualify for anything because they make a little over the poverty level.

NoHelp4U,

Medicare covers those up to 150% of poverty level. Medicaid covers anyone with a disability.

So the system is SUPPOSED to be a lot easier than it used to be.

Yet it fails anyway.

A bigger government system would just fail bigger.

Elliot

[speechlesstx]

Hmmm...

The incoming president of the Canadian Medical Association says this country's health-care system is sick and doctors need to develop a plan to cure it.

Dr. Anne Doig says patients are getting less than optimal care and she adds that physicians from across the country - who will gather in Saskatoon on Sunday for their annual meeting - recognize that changes must be made.

"We all agree that the system is imploding, we all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize," Doing said in an interview with The Canadian Press.

"We know that there must be change," she said. "We're all running flat out, we're all just trying to stay ahead of the immediate day-to-day demands."

The pitch for change at the conference is to start with a presentation from Dr. Robert Ouellet, the current president of the CMA, who has said there's a critical need to make Canada's health-care system patient-centred. He will present details from his fact-finding trip to Europe in January, where he met with health groups in England, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands and France.

His thoughts on the issue are already clear. Ouellet has been saying since his return that "a health-care revolution has passed us by," that it's possible to make wait lists disappear while maintaining universal coverage and "that competition should be welcomed, not feared."

In other words, Ouellet believes there could be a role for private health-care delivery within the public system.

He has also said the Canadian system could be restructured to focus on patients if hospitals and other health-care institutions received funding based on the patients they treat, instead of an annual, lump- sum budget. This "activity-based funding" would be an incentive to provide more efficient care, he has said.

Doig says she doesn't know what a proposed "blueprint" toward patient- centred care might look like when the meeting wraps up Wednesday. She'd like to emerge with clear directions about where the association should focus efforts to direct change over the next few years. She also wants to see short-term, medium-term and long-term goals laid out.

"A short-term achievable goal would be to accelerate the process of getting electronic medical records into physicians' offices," she said. "That's one I think ought to be a priority and ought to be achievable."

A long-term goal would be getting health systems "talking to each other," so information can be quickly shared to help patients.

Doig, who has had a full-time family practice in Saskatoon for 30 years, acknowledges that when physicians have talked about changing the health-care system in the past, they've been accused of wanting an American-style structure. She insists that's not the case.

"It's not about choosing between an American system or a Canadian system," said Doig. "The whole thing is about looking at what other people do."

"That's called looking at the evidence, looking at how care is delivered and how care is paid for all around us (and) then saying 'Well, OK, that's good information. How do we make all of that work in the Canadian context? What do the Canadian people want?' "

Doig says there are some "very good things" about Canada's health-care system, but she points out that many people have stories about times when things didn't go well for them or their family.

"(Canadians) have to understand that the system that we have right now - if it keeps on going without change - is not sustainable," said Doig.

"They have to look at the evidence that's being presented and will be presented at (the meeting) and realize what Canada's doctors are trying to tell you, that you can get better care than what you're getting and we all have to participate in the discussion around how do we do that and of course how do we pay for it."

Canada's health care system "imploding?" Could it be true? As I've posted numerous times, private practices are flourishing in Canada and the incoming CMA says Canada needs to welcome more private competition. Duh?

[amdeist]

Hmmm...



Canada's health care system "imploding?" Could it be true? As I've posted numerous times, private practices are flourishing in Canada and the incoming CMA says Canada needs to welcome more private competition. Duh?

Why is everyone talking about the Canadian system? Just about every western nation on earth except for the United States has national health care. How about Germany, England, Denmark, etc. One would think that being so innovative, America could take to good points from each of the different systems and put together one that would top them all. Right now, America has the worst system, with highest costs, 50 million without access, and falling outcomes. If you buy the media BS about most Americans liking our system, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

[tickle]

Why is everyone talking about the Canadian system? Just about every western nation on earth except for the United States has national health care. How about Germany, England, Denmark, etc.? One would think that being so innovative, America could take to good points from each of the different systems and put together one that would top them all. Right now, America has the worst system, with highest costs, 50 million without access, and falling outcomes. If you buy the media BS about most Americans liking our system, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

amdeist, I so like your attitude regarding healthcare. What a great answer :D

Tick

[speechlesstx]

Why is everyone talking about the Canadian system?

It came from a Canadian news source so why not? Canada has been held up as an example from both sides, and if they are admitting their system is "imploding" and "unsustainable," why would we want to take that route?

Just about every western nation on earth except for the United States has national health care. How about Germany, England, Denmark, etc.

Isn't being different part of what makes America great? Why should we be like everyone else, who in varying degrees are moving back toward more privatized health care.

One would think that being so innovative, America could take to good points from each of the different systems and put together one that would top them all.

Because the fact of the matter is, the people in power now are not the least bit interested in coming up with something good, they are interested in power. What they claim to want to do makes no sense whatsoever, cut costs while expanding benefits without raising taxes. Use a public option to make private insurers honest and more competitive?

As Tim Pawlenty put it:

"The entitlement programs that the federal government currently runs are all broke and headed to bankruptcy," he told more than 100 people, many of them local officeholders. "Medicare is bankrupt or essentially bankrupt. Medicaid is essentially bankrupt. Social Security is essentially bankrupt."

"Why in the heck would we give the federal government another entitlement program to match on that track record?"

Talk about a bridge in Brooklyn to sell.

Right now, America has the worst system, with highest costs, 50 million without access, and falling outcomes. If you buy the media BS about most Americans liking our system, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

I invite you to substantiate both premises.

[450donn]

Why is everyone talking about the Canadian system? Just about every western nation on earth except for the United States has national health care. How about Germany, England, Denmark, etc.? One would think that being so innovative, America could take to good points from each of the different systems and put together one that would top them all. Right now, America has the worst system, with highest costs, 50 million without access, and falling outcomes. If you buy the media BS about most Americans liking our system, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

OK, by their own admission the Canadian system is in shambles. The system in the UK is far worse that the Canadians have it. Germany is nearly bankrupt as a nation. Their health care system is not talked about much because it does not work any better than the Canadian or the Brits.
There is one single reason people come to the US to practice medicine and to receive health care. Even if it is out of their own pockets. Our system works!
In those countries with rationed (read national) systems doctors are robots and are not allowed enough time to deal with their patients, patients are told by bureaucrats if they can have certain tests or if they are too old to receive care. What is so hard for people to understand, the majority of Americans understand that if the government runs health care like they have Freddie Mac, Fannie May, Amtrack, the post office, Nobama Motors, Medicare, Social Security, that a nationalized health care system would be bankrupt in less than five years. Then the real cuts in care would start coming out. Like 50 dollars for the drugs to kill people vs the 5000 dollars to save their lives.

[amdeist]

I invite you to substantiate both premises.[/QUOTE]

Read the Commonwealth Fund report on healthcare in the United States. It substantiates both premises. We have a bad system, and without change, we are going bankrupt. That is a fact! What's your answer? Let Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security die, and everyone fend for themselves. You won't have to worry about a war in the Middle East. You will have one right here, and it won't be Muslims you are fighting; it will be Americans.

[tickle]

OK, by their own admission the Canadian system is in shambles. The system in the UK is far worse that the Canadians have it. Germany is nearly bankrupt as a nation. Their health care system is not talked about much because it does not work any better than the Canadian or the Brits.
There is one single reason people come to the US to practice medicine and to receive health care. Even if it is out of their own pockets. Our system works!
In those countries with rationed (read national) systems doctors are robots and are not allowed enough time to deal with their patients, patients are told by bureaucrats if they can have certain tests or if they are too old to receive care. What is so hard for people to understand, the majority of Americans understand that if the government runs health care like they have Freddie Mac, Fannie May, Amtrack, the post office, Nobama Motors, Medicare, Social Security, that a nationalized health care system would be bankrupt in less than five years. Then the real cuts in care would start coming out. Like 50 dollars for the drugs to kill people vs the 5000 dollars to save their lives.

Hey, wait a minute ! I am Canadian, I am happy with my healthcare, my mom at 95 was happy too. Doctor is great. Our hospital is great. I see no problem at my age. Its imploding, well, I would never know it and neither do any of my clients who have wonderful OHIP coverage and are well cared for.

If you system works, how come so many people have to go bankrupt from treatment and hospital stays !

Tick

[450donn]

Hey, wait a minute ! I am Canadian, I am happy with my healthcare, my mom at 95 was happy too. Doctor is great. Our hospital is great. I see no problem at my age. Its imploding, well, I would never know it and neither do any of my clients who have wonderful OHIP coverage and are well cared for.

If you system works, how come so many people have to go bankrupt from treatment and hospital stays !

tick

Go back and reread post number 312 for you answer. Your own head of the organization says it is broken.

[tickle]

Dr. Doig is not the 'head' of OHIP, 450donn, she is the new President of the Canadian Medical Association which is a published journal.

Tick