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NeedKarma · May 28, 2009, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by tomder55

yes I do think that murder should not be a choice .

But it's not murder is it.

NeedKarma · May 28, 2009, 06:21 AM

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

How many right-wingers like me and tom are "an atheist and a secular kinda guy" that practices "moral relativism regularly?" Maybe the Canadian health care system has something to help you with those jerking knees.

So to be a right-winger you *must* be a christian? That's why your party is on the wane.

excon · May 28, 2009, 06:26 AM

Hello again,

So, with all this talk of murder, don't tell me that you're not going to put abortionists and the women they work on, in JAIL! That is, if you had your druthers.

excon

speechlesstx · May 28, 2009, 06:26 AM

Originally Posted by cozyk

Not everyone feels the same and you are trying to force your feelings down someone else's throat.

I referred to the fetus as cells earlier because technically and scientifically that is what it is. It has no thoughts, feelings, concepts, awareness, or fears. It just exist. It lives off your body like any other growth in your body.

That's all so much nonsense, my concern for innocent life has nothing to do with my "feelings," and I have yet to bring religion into either. It is a child that deserves a chance. No amount of science can change the fact that it is human life inside the womb, and if you believe it it's just a mass of tissue that just exists you haven't paid attention to science anyway.

Speech, did you daughter have a "safe" above board abortion? Or did she have to go to some butcher that would do it without any regulations?

What exactly is a "safe" abortion? I didn't realize there were any risk-free abortions.

speechlesstx · May 28, 2009, 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by Skell

Steve,

Can i ask does your belief system (religion and subsequently on abortion) stem from the situation with your daughter? Or did you hold these beliefs prior to her illness and abortion?

No Skell, I was pro-life long before that. Her experience and that of friends just makes me more so.

speechlesstx · May 28, 2009, 06:31 AM

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again,

So, with all this talk of murder, don't tell me that you're not going to put abortionists and the women they work on, in JAIL!! That is, if you had your druthers.

excon

So far I think you're the only one that's mentioned jail. Some abortionists however do deserve prison.

tomder55 · May 28, 2009, 06:32 AM

But it's not murder is it.

The black robed imperial oligarchs took the choice of defining abortion as murder away from the people. But we all know that the intentional taking of innocent human life is murder regardless of the legality .

speechlesstx · May 28, 2009, 06:36 AM

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

So to be a right-winger you *must* be a christian? That's why your party is on the wane.

There you go with those jerking knees again. Try something besides knee-jerk assumptions.

cozyk · May 28, 2009, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by tomder55

The black robed imperial oligarchs took the choice of defining abortion as murder away from the people. But we all know that the intentional taking of innocent human life is murder regardless of the legality .

That is so ironic. The black robed imperial oligarchs took the choice away? Actually they put the choice back in. You can call it murder if that is the way you see it and you can elect to continue with a pregnancy if that is your choice. They GAVE a choice, they didn't take one away.

tomder55 · May 28, 2009, 06:42 AM

Not true ,they imposed their will on the people of the country .

speechlesstx · May 28, 2009, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by Dare81

The concept of destiny is one asscoiated with God.If God wanted the baby to be somone's child then he can stop him from becoming medical waste.Let God worry about the child's destiny, you can just worry about yourself for now

In it's simplest form destiny is a predetermined course of events. When this sperm and egg get together is there some possibility it might grow to be a cat, or is it typically going to become a human child unless someone intervenes to change that course? If I just worry about myself isn't that entirely contrary to the challenge by "the coolest president ever" to serve others? Not to mention especially selfish?

cozyk · May 28, 2009, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by tomder55

not true ,they imposed their will on the people of the country .

Not true, you can handle it anyway you choose.

Skell · May 28, 2009, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

So far I think you're the only one that's mentioned jail. Some abortionists however do deserve prison.

So, if you get your way and abortion is made illegal, what do you propose to do to the women who have illegal abortions? Gaol them? Fine them? Cane them? What? If something is illegal there has to be a punishment? Or am I missing something? Ex mentions prison because that is what you do with law breakers. Gaol them.. And you guys do it better than anyone else in the world.

P.S. Im a fence sitter on this issue. I believe in a woman's choice but I also can sort of see the other side of the story. But calling it murder and genocide is ridiculous in my opinion.

tomder55 · May 28, 2009, 04:42 PM

But calling it murder and genocide is ridiculous in my opinion

There have been over 40 million abortion murders in the US since Roe v Wade . That puts us well past Hitler numbers into the Stalin league.

Skell · May 28, 2009, 10:46 PM

But if it isn't illegal it isn't murder. As I said, ridiculous!

Dare81 · May 29, 2009, 12:29 AM

Originally Posted by tomder55

There have been over 40 million abortion murders in the US since Roe v Wade . That puts us well past Hitler numbers into the Stalin league.

Your argument implies that that all of the 40 million murders should be blamed on roe vs vade, would there be no illegal abortion if women did not have the right to choose.Would there not be underground clinics performing abortions?

tomder55 · May 29, 2009, 02:12 AM

Dare of course... but no where's near the number now. Skell ,the Final Solution was legal in Germany. I'm sure Stalin was doing what was legal in the Soviet Union.

speechlesstx · May 29, 2009, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by Skell

So, if you get your way and abortion is made illegal, what do you propose to do to the women who have illegal abortions? Gaol them?? Fine them?? Cane them?? What?? If something is illegal there has to be a punishment? Or am i missing something? Ex mentions prison because that is what you do with law breakers. Gaol them.. And you guys do it better than anyone else in the world.

P.S. Im a fence sitter on this issue. I believe in a woman's choice but i also can sort of see the other side of the story. But calling it murder and genocide is ridiculous in my opinion.

Skell, I am under no illusion that abortion will ever be banned (unless we go the Sharia route) and I don't recall having ever fought for an outright ban so I believe this argument is just a diversion. I want to change the culture that has cheapened the unborn child down to a mass of cells with no value and abortion rights approaching religious status. Changing hearts and minds to see the infinite value of an unborn child is where it starts and when that happens I believe society will be the better for it.

cozyk · May 29, 2009, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Skell, I am under no illusion that abortion will ever be banned (unless we go the Sharia route) and I don't recall having ever fought for an outright ban so I believe this argument is just a diversion. I want to change the culture that has cheapened the unborn child down to a mass of cells with no value and abortion rights approaching religious status. Changing hearts and minds to see the infinite value of an unborn child is where it starts and when that happens I believe society will be the better for it.

Now this is an argument I can respect. It calls for the best of each persons conscience. I believe that MOST women don't take this decision lightly. I believe that it involves soul searching, prayer, and a lot of deliberation. To promote this scrutiny is the way to go if you want to make a change. To demand a complete ban is counter productive. After all this diligence,if the decision to abort is yes, then there must be a very compelling reason.
Appealing to each persons best self is the way to go.

excon · May 29, 2009, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I want to change the culture that has cheapened the unborn child.... ..when that happens I believe society will be the better for it.

Hello again, Steve:

I don't disagree. Yours is a worthy goal. But, change is a two way street..

Me?? I'd like to see efforts toward reducing unwanted pregnancies in the first place. But, it's probably going to involve a change in culture that you're not willing to engage in.

That would be a change to one where sex education is taught in schools, birth control for everybody - including TEENS, Plan B in ALL drug stores, and health care for all..

I somehow think those aren't cultural changes you'd be willing to make.

excon

PS> Do I think abstinence works?? Yes. Teach it at home and in your church.