[adam7gur]

Hi adam7gur,

These verses are John being shown the works of the seven candlesticks. Those candlesticks are seven churches(Revel 1:20) And this message is confirming that one of the churches has left their first love (God the love above all else). Althought they teach the fault of evil, they, themselves says they know the apostles but call them liers by: (probably by not following the apostles direction in gospel and tradisions.) Man today make up their own tradisions which makes void the word of God. Also in doing so God says they have left HIS Word which is what the scripture say is God from the beginning, and was made flesh in Christ. They are doing this all in HIS name sake.

So yes this church (members of a fellowship)could lose their salvation in Christ, when they leave HIM for their own prideful ways. They must repent !

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Hello my brother!
Your way of expressing yourself is sometimes difficult for me to follow since English is not my mother language,but I admire the chained ideas that you describe many times.
I will try harder to follow you!God bless you!

[adam7gur]

Not true - every single saint in the OT was in the same position as the thief.

How were they saved? Are you saying that there were two ways to be saved? That Jesus sacrifice on the cross was not necessary?

Once again,twisting words!
Was really every saint in the OT on a cross with Jesus?
If so then you must change the photo that you have on your profile and add some thousand more!
I surely meant the position of the cross,literally!!
How were OT people saved?By obeying the law,which from A-Z is Jesus Christ, so obeying the law is obeying Christ!
Both OT and NT believers are saved by Christ who is the same yesterday,today and forever!
Doesn't this make you think at least?
Isn't it clear for you that the sacrifise of Jesus repleaced the sacrifise of animals?
Replacing is not saying that what was till then is wrong , but as Jesus said He came to fulfill the law and not cancel it!
To speak in modern language , the sacrifise of Jesus is an update of the sacrifice of animals!

[homesell]

Ro 9:32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by works of law For they stumbled at that stumbling stone
Ga 2:16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified
Ga 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ga 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them"

[Tj3]

Once again,twisting words!

Your false accusations are really becoming tiring - give it a rest.

Was really every saint in the OT on a cross with Jesus?

They were all in the same situation in that none of then had Christian baptism, therefore you cannot say that the thief on the cross is an individual case - in fact up to that point, none of the saint were so baptized. If baptized was essential for salvation, then they would all be dead in their sins.

How were OT people saved?By obeying the law,which from A-Z is Jesus Christ, so obeying the law is obeying Christ!

Gal 3:21-22
For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
NKJV

1 Tim 1:9-11
9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.
NKJV

Isn't it clear for you that the sacrifise of Jesus repleaced the sacrifise of animals?

According to scripture, Christ did not replace the animals, rather than animals were prophetic of Christ and the sacrifices were pointing to the true source of their salvation

Heb 10:3-4
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
NKJV

Heb 10:11-12
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
NKJV

Heb 10:12-15
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV

[sndbay]

They were all in the same situation in that none of then had Christian baptism, therefore you cannot say that the thief on the cross is an individual case - in fact up to that point, none of the saint were so baptized. if baptized was essential for salvation, then they would all be dead in their sins.

adam7gur and Tom,

I can't detail much at this time because of my schedule...

However please recognize the (OT) law of sin having to follow in circumcision. (NT) law of Faith is circumcision of the heart.

The theif on the cross for all we know was circumcised at birth by the law of sin they followed. Baptism is (NT) law of Faith

[Tj3]

adam7gur and Tom,

I can't detail much at this time because of my schedule...

However please recognize the (OT) law of sin having to follow in circumcision. (NT) law of Faith is circumcision of the heart.

The theif on the cross for all we know was circumcised at birth by the law of sin they followed. Baptism is (NT) law of Faith

Circumcision never saved, just as water baptism does not save. Scripture tells us this. Circumcision was symbolic and prophetic of the circumcision of our hearts that takes place when we submit ourselves to Christ. The circumcision itself does not save, nor did it ever. Notice here we are told that there were men walking in faith with God prior to being circumcised:

Rom 4:11-12
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.
NKJV

Likewise, if you truly want to understand baptism, you need to understand the Jewish Mikveh. The Mikveh IS baptism. It IS what John was doing, and it is what we do today. Yet the OT Mikveh was, according to scripture symbolic of Christ who was to come, and is fulfilled in Christ. We therefore do it today as symbolism (according to Romans 6, Heb 9 and others) of what Christ has done for us.

[sndbay]

Circumcision never saved, just as water baptism does not save.

Tom the statement makes void the reference of 1 Peter 3:21-22

ONE Baptism is in like figure to Jesus and water of Noah, that it also saves us .

(1 Peter 3:21-22 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water, The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Scripture tells us this. Circumcision was symbolic and prophetic of the circumcision of our hearts that takes place when we submit ourselves to Christ. The circumcision itself does not save, nor did it ever. Notice here we are told that there were men walking in faith with God prior to being circumcised:

We can say the same about the Gentiles being baptized. Even when they were reveal truth by the spirit< they were still baptized And I will add, you are saying baptism is symbolic water, just as circumcision. The difference is we are told baptism does save.. NOT by put away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God
This is the spiritual body within, the conscience, the heart mind and soul.. Jesus took care of the flesh body. Plus He set us free from the curse, and the law of sin. Chirst brought us salvation

Eph 4:4-5 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Rom 4:11-12
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.
NKJV
.

OT circumcision =(a seal of the righteousness)

NT baptism = Jesus said-- (fulfil all righteousness)

[Tj3]

Tom the statement makes void the reference of 1 Peter 3:21-22

ONE Baptism is in like figure to Jesus and water of Noah, that it also saves us .

(1 Peter 3:21-22 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water, The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Let's look at the passage in context

1 Peter 3:18-22
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
NKJV

We see three things discussed here:

1) Noah's Ark and its role in saving people through the flood
2) Water baptism
3) The gospel and the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

This passage relates these three items by showing how they relate. First Peter speaks the death of Christ on the cross, setting the focus for the passage. As a result of this passage, we know that the focus of the verses that follow are regarding the death of Christ on the cross for our sins.

This death for our sins is then compared, to the flood, with the flood discussed as a symbolic “type” or comparison to salvation which come through the cross of Christ. An anti-type means a replacement or a contrast. This when we are told about one type, and then we are told that there is an anti-type, what we see here is a contrasting type of the death on the cross.

This understanding also agrees with what Paul said in Romans 6 where he identifies baptism as a “likeness” or symbolic of the death and resurrection on the cross:

Rom 6:3-7
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
NKJV

So we find that Romans 6 and 1 Peter 3 are telling us the same thing – baptism is symbolic.

We can say the same about the Gentiles being baptized. Even when they were reveal truth by the spirit< they were still baptized And I will add, you are saying baptism is symbolic water, just as circumcision. The difference is we are told baptism does save..

Look at what I said above. We cannot take a small passage out of context.

Eph 4:4-5 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Which baptism is the ONE baptism, water or the Holy Spirit?

[arcura]

adam7gur ans sndbay,
I agree with you on this and the Scripture you sited confirms it.
Fred

[sndbay]

We see three things discussed here:

1) Noah's Ark and its role in saving people through the flood
2) Water baptism
3) The gospel and the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

1. is the Comparison flood of water.

However 2. and 3. are the (joining of one hope) of the calling in salvation. That hope in calling joins us to One Lord/Christ,
One faith/flesh sins gone by the begotten son of God who is worthy and righteousness,
One baptism/ the spirit dwelling mind and heart

Eph 4:4-5 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Chirst was of flesh with the dwelling of the Holy Spirit joined as ONE in righteousness. I have reference scripture which says you can not say Christ was Lord otherwise.
Christ is One with The Father...
We are called to be one with Christ. We walk in HIM and He dwells in us.= One hope in salvation

This passage relates these three items by showing how they relate. First Peter speaks the death of Christ on the cross, setting the focus for the passage. As a result of this passage, we know that the focus of the verses that follow are regarding the death of Christ on the cross for our sins.

It is the death of sin on the cross, Christ was raised.

This death for our sins is then compared, to the flood, with the flood discussed as a symbolic “type” or comparison to salvation which come through the cross of Christ. An anti-type means a replacement or a contrast. This when we are told about one type, and then we are told that there is an anti-type, what we see here is a contrasting type of the death on the cross.

I can agree, it is the comparison. I did example that comparison.

This understanding also agrees with what Paul said in Romans 6 where he identifies baptism as a “likeness” or symbolic of the death and resurrection on the cross:

Yes and able to raise as Christ was raised...

Which baptism is the ONE baptism, water or the Holy Spirit?

Peter 3:18
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

One Lord One Faith One Baptism = the joined answering to the calling of salvation

[sndbay]

Hello my brother!
Your way of expressing yourself is sometimes difficult for me to follow since English is not my mother language,but I admire the chained ideas that you describe many times.
I will try harder to follow you!God bless you!

adam7gur,
I understand that differences in languarge can be hard to follow.


(In prayer) = In the spirit of Christ Jesus, may we be all that God created us to be. His strength to keep us in HIS way, doing the Will of GOD, who we follow.

In Jesus Name, Amen

[sndbay]

Ro 9:32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by works of law For they stumbled at that stumbling stone
Ga 2:16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified
Ga 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ga 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them"

Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

[Tj3]

1. is the Comparison flood of water.
However 2. and 3. are the (joining of one hope) of the calling in salvation. That hope in calling joins us to One Lord/Christ,

That is your claim, but that is not what we find in scripture.

Eph 4:4-5 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Which is the ONE baptism, water or the Holy Spirit?

Chirst was of flesh with the dwelling of the Holy Spirit joined as ONE in righteousness. I have reference scripture which says you can not say Christ was Lord otherwise.

That would make the baptism of the Holy Spirit being the ONE baptism. I agree.

I can agree, it is the comparison. I did example that comparison.

Then being a comparison, the water does not save, but rather is compared to the event which does provide our salvation.

[sndbay]

That is your claim, but that is not what we find in scripture.

Remember the body is weak so Christ shed HIS blood for the body.. There spirit is willing, so we do want to walk in the spirtual dwelling of Christ, and can do so once baptized. That willingness is witness by heaven, and baptism is the HOLY SPIRIT part to dwell within us.

We have not gotten to the facts on the flesh body being dead in Christ verses asleep in HIM.. And that would be another thread. It addresses the challenge of a person that did confess faith, but died of the flesh before baptized. We can't judge this, but Christ does. Point is the dead in Christ rise first... The first to rise are them that are baptized in Christ and have confessed faith. The twinking of the eye is to become of the spiritual body, and leaving the flesh. Christ will return as the great brightness of light(spiritual body)... Anyone proclaiming to be Christ is 666 (flesh man)..

The WORD = Christ has foretold us all things...

Then being a comparison, the water does not save, but rather is compared to the event which does provide our salvation.

Tom, Most assuredly nothing of man's hands other then Christ saves us. It is not the church that baptizes us but the reality of the HOLY SPIRIT coming within us. It does not take a priest to baptize, for many baptized in scripture that were not priest. And John, himself was baptized, not by himself but by the HOLY SPIRIT from womb(OT)...
Note being that (NT) says reborn at an old age in confession of faith in Christ. We must establish the law of Faith in (NT).. being baptized symbolic of water = comparison of flood, and spiritual of the mind and heart = HOLY SPIRIT



p.s. Willing heart and mind to go forward on their own to be baptized..

[sndbay]

Which is the ONE baptism, water or the Holy Spirit?
.

ONE BAPTISM

symbolic of water = comparison of flood

Spiritual of the mind and heart = HOLY SPIRIT


~In Christ

[Tj3]

ONE BAPTISM

symbolic of water = comparison of flood

Spiritual of the mind and heart = HOLY SPIRIT


~In Christ

Then the ONE baptism is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

[Tj3]

Remember the body is weak so Christ shed HIS blood for the body.. There spirit is willing, so we do want to walk in the spirtual dwelling of Christ,

Okay...

and can do so once baptized.

This is the part that you yet need to prove from scripture.

Tom, Most assuredly nothing of man's hands other then Christ saves us. It is not the church that baptizes us but the reality of the HOLY SPIRIT coming within us.

Right - the ONE baptism is that of the Holy Spirit.

[sndbay]

This is the part that you yet need to prove from scripture.

.

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.

1 John 2:29 If ye know that He is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of Him.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

*******************************

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Continue: so if we are baptized:( Romans 6:5 [/B] For "if "we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection):

Continue: Our body might be destroyed/crucified/ not ever to serve sin (Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. )

So the revealed truth is that Christ dead for sin, and raised... He set us free from the curse of sin. We are able in baptism, thereafter never to return to sin, because we are dead in HIS likeness.

Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Death is satan... satan has no more dominion over Christ. We are sealed in the righteosuness of Christ, HIS likness. Dead and buried in Christ.

[sndbay]

Then the ONE baptism is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

YES... Remembering that Christ is one body with the HOLY SPIRIT, and HIS Father

So Tom is one body with HOLY SPIRIT and CHRIST (by baptism)


John 17:21-22That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

John 17: 24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

[Tj3]

So Tom is one body with HOLY SPIRIT and CHRIST (by baptism)

I'll deal with the other comments when I have more time, but I just want to note that you add "by baptism", which is not found in scripture. Rather than telling me, find a scripture verse which, on context, validates that claim, and I'll gladly concede. But I won't believe it just because you tell me.