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arcura · May 12, 2009, 10:21 PM

Tj3,
I have previously posted here from the bible how a person can lose their salvation.
Why ask me to do it again?
If you don't believe it then go ahead a reject God and see what happens to you or refuse to forgive others.
I case you never noticed one must be forgiven to to to heaven and Jesus says that IF you don't forgive others you will not be forgiven.
Fred

Tj3 · May 12, 2009, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
I have previously posted here from the bible how a person can lose their salvation.
Why ask me to do it again?

Fred,

You have never shown a verse which shows that a person can unknowingly cease to be saved.

If you don't believe it then go ahead a reject God and see what happens to you or refuse to forgive others.

If I chose to reject God, that would be a deliberate rejection of God and my salvation, and it would be knowingly rejecting God. I agree that we can cease to be saved by doing so. But I disagree that we can lose (unknowingly) our salvation.

Tj3 · May 12, 2009, 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

I thought alot about this. Jesus did taste death but he didn't stay dead...he "tasted" it but was alive the third day and alive forever more. Not at ALL like when we die....is it?

So He was actually dead and then ceased to be dead.

Just like when people are saved, and then reject their salvation and cease to be saved.

See what I mean?

arcura · May 12, 2009, 11:16 PM

Tj3.
Yes SOME people were saved later were not.
Fred

homesell · May 13, 2009, 04:59 AM

If the Holy Spirit of God is in you, you are born again, you are walking in the spirit, you are a new person, you are not under law but under grace, you are following in the steps of Jesus, it is no longer you that live but Christ that lives in you and it is in Christ we live and move and have our being. Such a person cannot willfully reject Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit for they are all living inside the person and the old man is dead. There is no such thing as a "carnal christian" one who lives by the flesh yet professes to believe. Many that "reject God" after tasting of the spirit were never born again. They simply went through the motions and acted as they believe God wanted them to act and how they saw other Christians acting. That is the problem, it was all acting, and when the curtain comes down at the end of the day, the pseudo believer knows deep in their heart they are just a wannabe Christian. When they realize they really don't have a relationship with God, they think they did everything the way they were supposed to and it didn't work so they reject him. Or they thought becoming a Christian would enable them to "have their best life now" and when God doesn't "work for them" they reject. Many other reasons but the main one is they don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are born of the Spirit, will return to the Father at death, are currently seated in the heavenlies, that God in all three persons is indwelling them and that we are here on earth for the purpose of letting the love of God flow to others.

classyT · May 13, 2009, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Tj3

So He was actually dead and then ceased to be dead.

Just like when people are saved, and then reject their salvation and cease to be saved.

See what I mean?

Yes, I see what you mean BUT I am NOT ready to conceed yet. I have a sneaking suspicion that you have agrued this before... I need to study this out better... in the words of Arnie... I'll be back.:p

Tj3 · May 13, 2009, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by classyT

yes, i see what you mean BUT i am NOT ready to conceed yet. I have a sneaking suspicion that you have agrued this before....I need to study this out better...in the words of Arnie....I'll be back.:p

I look forward to your return!

arcura · May 13, 2009, 09:38 PM

Jeff,
I understand what you are saying, but under the conditions that I mentioned I still believe that a person can lose their salvation.
People can be very flexible do to various conditions and happenings as live proceeds on.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3 · May 13, 2009, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Jeff,
I understand what you are saying, but under the conditions that I mentioned I still believe that a person can lose their salvation.
People can be very flexible do to various conditions and happenings as live proceeds on.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

How do you harmonize your view that it is possible for a person to cease being saved without their knowledge with this declaration of assurance of security of our salvation?

John 10:29-30
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."
NKJV

arcura · May 13, 2009, 10:27 PM

Tj3,
I have said that. I use what the bible tells us about being saved.
I mentioned two conditions that a person can fall into that will cause them to lose their salvation.
Those are what I believe to be so and stand by.
Fred

Tj3 · May 13, 2009, 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
I have said that. I use what the bible tells us about being saved.
I mentioned two conditions that a person can fall into that will cause them to lose their salvation.
Those are what I believe to be so and stand by.
Fred

Fred,

I am interested in how you harmonize your view with what scripture says regarding Jesus' assurance that our salvation cannot be snatched from us.

arcura · May 13, 2009, 11:34 PM

Tj3,
I am interested in your answer to my question IF you ever decide to answer it.
Fred.

homesell · May 14, 2009, 04:34 AM

Fred.
TJ3 DID answer your question as did I. John 3:3-9 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?"

Nicodemus thought Jesus was referring to a rebirth in the fleshly manner(which is very watery and the semen itself is 90% water) but Jesus clears it up for Him by saying one must be born of the water and of the spirit and then states plainly that what is born of flesh IS flesh, that which is born of spirit IS spirit. We ALL have been born of water, we have NOT all been born of the spirit.

sndbay · May 14, 2009, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by homesell

Nicodemus thought Jesus was referring to a rebirth in the fleshly manner(which is very watery and the semen itself is 90% water) but Jesus clears it up for Him by saying one must be born of the water and of the spirit and then states plainly that what is born of flesh IS flesh, that which is born of spirit IS spirit. We ALL have been born of water, we have NOT all been born of the spirit.

homesell, I don't follow what you are saying as fact from scripture, and I would hope Tom agrees that it has nothing to do with semen..

Fred perhaps what scripture does say can help. And I trust Tom will agree.

Nicodemus ask how one could be born again.(How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?)

Jesus answer was (3:5 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. )

Born of water takes place at the time of birth from the mother's womb. God has provided this as nourishment in many ways. We can read of God's enlightment taking place for some at this time in the womb. Scripture is telling us that from the womb comes man who is born of water, and shall be called holy by the Lord. That is how a new born baby is nourished by God from birth. (innocent) and also why a baby need not be baptized at birth.

Luke 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord)

However (John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.)

This is being born again by the Spirit of Life where Christ dwells in you. So we do indeed have two births. The second birth is at the older age as Nicodemus referenced. When man is able to confess his faith and follow willingly the path of righteousness.

homesell · May 14, 2009, 05:41 AM

Thanks Sndbay,
I think we said the same thing. If not, what you said is what I meant and what I said is what I meant.
"They" won't let me rate you or TJ3 till I "spread it around" some more.

adam7gur · May 14, 2009, 05:51 AM

Originally Posted by homesell

John 3:3-9 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8 "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?"

The Greek text is about being born anothen,which in a free translation means , being born from above and not being born again.

adam7gur · May 14, 2009, 05:58 AM

Revelation 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

2I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

3And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

4Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

5Remember therefore whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Sounds to me like they could lose their salvation if by that you mean the Kingdom of Heaven!

sndbay · May 14, 2009, 06:31 AM

Originally Posted by adam7gur

Revelation 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

2I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

3And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

4Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

5Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Sounds to me like they could lose their salvation if by that you mean the Kingdom of Heaven!

Hi adam7gur,

These verses are John being shown the works of the seven candlesticks. Those candlesticks are seven churches(Revel 1:20) And this message is confirming that one of the churches has left their first love (God the love above all else). Althought they teach the fault of evil, they, themselves says they know the apostles but call them liers by: (probably by not following the apostles direction in gospel and tradisions.) Man today make up their own tradisions which makes void the word of God. Also in doing so God says they have left HIS Word which is what the scripture say is God from the beginning, and was made flesh in Christ. They are doing this all in HIS name sake.

So yes this church (members of a fellowship)could lose their salvation in Christ, when they leave HIM for their own prideful ways. They must repent !

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

cozyk · May 14, 2009, 07:03 AM

WOW This thread is long. Do we not have a definitive answer yet?

sndbay · May 14, 2009, 07:26 AM

Originally Posted by cozyk

WOW This thread is long. Do we not have a definitive answer yet?

The depth and fullness of God is never ending.. The same for HIS love... It is wonderful to speak of HIS Word and all He sent to us.

In that, perhaps not to your question. The all knowing God has more, and is endless.