[Wondergirl]

We already discussed that one - there is no such verse there.

YOU said that. I didn't. There are several there, very explicit.

Acts 2:40-42
40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation." 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. 4
NKJV

By the grace of the Holy Spirit already working faith in their hearts, they were able to speak acceptance.

[Tj3]

YOU said that. I didn't. There are several there, very explicit.

I read them all. I see none that say anything remotely like that. You can keep claiming that they exist, but what I would suggest is pick the one that you think is the strongest argument and let's look at it.

By the grace of the Holy Spirit already working faith in their hearts, they were able to speak acceptance.

Agreed. So with the help of the Holy Spirit, they freely accepted the gift of salvation.

[Wondergirl]

I read them all. I see none that say anything remotely like that. You can keep claiming that they exist, but what I would suggest is pick the one that you think is the strongest argument and let's look at it.

Give me a break! I refuse to wander down this same-old same-old road with you just because you refuse to give in.

Agreed. So with the help of the Holy Spirit, they freely accepted the gift of salvation.

The Holy Spirit working in their hearts enabled them to accept.

Here's another one:

John 16:7-10 (New International Version) 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;

[Tj3]

Give me a break! I refuse to wander down this same-old same-old road with you just because you refuse to give in.

I won't give in solely because you say so. I base my views on scripture. If you want to convince me, scripture is the way.

The Holy Spirit working in their hearts enabled them to accept.

Agreed. So it is both true that it is a work of the Holy Spirit, and an acceptance by the person.

Are you happy that we can agree on this?

Here's another one:

John 16:7-10 (New International Version) 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;

I fully believe and agree with all that it says. But nowhere does that say that we cannot decide to accept Him as Saviour.

[Wondergirl]

I won't give in solely because you say so. I base my views on scripture. If you want to convince me, scripture is the way.

Been there, done that.

Are you happy that we can agree on this?

I don't think we are there yet.

[Tj3]

Been there, done that.

Fine - if you don't wish to respond to the request, that is you choice.

I don't think we are there yet.

Really? I thought that we both agreed that the Holy Spirit working on the heart of the unsaved gave them the freedom to accept the free gift of salvation.

[Wondergirl]

Fine - if you don't wish to respond to the request, that is you choice.

LOL -- cute. Post #161.

Really? I thought that we both agreed that the Holy Spirit working on the heart of the unsaved gave them the freedom to accept the free gift of salvation.

You must be an Arminian. They say everyone has enough grace to accept Christ if he wants to.

From theology.edu --

Efficacious grace is given to a person when the Lord brings that one to himself. It is the ministry of the Holy Spirit which is certainly effectual in revealing the Gospel and in leading to saving faith. (Ephesians 2:8-9). Efficacious grace secures the salvation of the one who has been chosen by God. It is the instantaneous work of God empowering the human will and inclining the human heart to faith in Christ. It is irresistable (Romans 9:19 and John 3:8). Once God has determined that a person will belong to him, that person will no longer be able to resist the call.

[Wondergirl]

Arminism (Wikipedia) -- "Man has free will to respond or resist: Free will is limited by God's sovereignty, but God's sovereignly allows all men the choice to accept the Gospel of Jesus through faith, simultaneously allowing all men to resist."

I guess you are just another one of those work-righteousness types, part of that gang.

[Wondergirl]

More from mountainretreatorg.net --

One author summed up Arminian thinking as follows,"....God was made dependent on free-will-equipped-men for whom He politely had to wait, looking to see whether the man would be so kind as to believe."

Though the Reformers of the early 16th Century did not have to contend with Arminianism as such, since Arminianism arose late in the 16th century and early in the 17th century, they did have to contend with its theological cousin, Semi-Pelagianism. Semi-Pelagianism teaches that man is spiritually sick. As such he does need the help of God's grace in order to get better. However, it is up to man to take the spiritual medicine which God offers. God must have man's cooperation. In theological terms this was called "synergism." You can see the similarity to the Arminian position. The Reformers responded to this by stressing the sovereign grace of God, as heard in the cry "Sola gratia." God calls those dead in sin to new life (see Eph. 2:1-10). The Reformers stressed the helplessness of man in sin and the sovereignty of God in grace. This was a point of unity between the Reformers despite differences about other issues. In the Book "The Bondage of the Will" this was the point that Luther argued with Erasmus.

We should note then that Arminianism is a reincarnation of Semi-Pelagianism with its emphasis on man's freedom. This explains why the churches acted so resolutely with respect to Arminianism. They saw it as a serious threat to the gospel and condemned it "as being in principle a return to Rome (because in effect it turned faith into a meritorious work) and a betrayal of the Reformation (because it denied the sovereignty of God in saving sinners, which was the deepest religious and theological principle of the Reformer's thought). Arminianism was, indeed, in Reformed eyes a renunciation of New Testament Christianity in favour of New Testament Judaism; for to rely on oneself for faith is no different in principle from relying on oneself for works, and the one is as un-Christian and anti-Christian as the other."

Arminianism, in typical Semi-Pelagian style, teaches self-help religion. It is sovereign God versus sovereign man. It is indeed the different gospel which Paul warned about. It is appealing because it extols the dignity of man. It is a lie because man is dead in sin, totally helpless.

[Tj3]

LOL -- cute. Post #161.

Unless you changed the post, it is still not there and won't magically appear because you want it to.

You must be an Arminian. They say everyone has enough grace to accept Christ if he wants to.

I did not say that. I said something much different. I said that the work of the Holy Spirit is essential for a person to accept Jesus as Saviour, and we agree on that point, so you must also be an Arminian, if you say that I am.

Perhaps rather than getting into labeling or name-calling to mis-represent me, why don't you deal with what I am actually saying?

[arcura]

Wondergirl and Tj3.
From the New Jerusalem Bible
"John 6: 44. `No one can come to me
unless drawn by the Father who sent me,
and I will raise that person up on the last day.
45. It is written in the prophets:
They will all be taught by God;
everyone who has listened to the Father,
and learnt from him, comes to me."
It appears to me that it is The Father who brings people and their soles to Jesus.
I accepted that calling long ago.
What say you now?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Wondergirl and Tj3.
From the New Jerusalem Bible
"John 6: 44. `No one can come to me
unless drawn by the Father who sent me,
and I will raise that person up on the last day.
45. It is written in the prophets:
They will all be taught by God;
everyone who has listened to the Father,
and learnt from him, comes to me."
It appears to me that it is The Father who brings people and their soles to Jesus.
I accepted that calling long ago.
What say you now?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

First I say, let's go to a better translation:

John 6:44-46
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
NKJV

Second, I say that I agree entirely - I said that all along. There is both the necessarily work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the person, and the necessary acceptance of Jesus as Saviour. Scripture teaches both.

[arcura]

Tj3,
Thanks.
But I do not see or agree that what you posted is a BETTER translation.
I think the NJB is one of the best.
Fred

[sndbay]

Wondergirl and Tj3.
From the New Jerusalem Bible
"John 6: 44. `No one can come to me
unless drawn by the Father who sent me,
and I will raise that person up on the last day.
45. It is written in the prophets:
They will all be taught by God;
everyone who has listened to the Father,
and learnt from him, comes to me."
It appears to me that it is The Father who brings people and their soles to Jesus.
I accepted that calling long ago.
What say you now?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Nicely said Fred

2 Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through
1.sanctification of the Spirit
And
2.belief of the truth:

2 Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. KJV

[Tj3]

Tj3,
Thanks.
But I do not see or agree that what you posted is a BETTER translation.
I think the NJB is one of the best.
Fred

You are, of course, welcome to your opinion. We have seen some passages that you have posted in the past from the NJB where it ignored the Greek in favour of a particular theology, but that approach may be favoured by some people.

The NKJV sticks more closely to what the Greek text says and that is the reason for my preference for it. But nonetheless, that is not the topic of this thread. What is determined to be better will depend upon what a specific person desires from their translation.

[arcura]

sndbay,
Thank you.
Fred

[adam7gur]

Read Psalm 82. These "gods" are unjust judges who judge falsely, do not understand, walk around in darkness and die like men.

Is that the type of "god" that you want to be?

Psalm 82
1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Notice that in the Greek text v.7 says '' but you die like men'' and not ''you will die like men''and that in v.6 God says '' I have said .. ''
It is very clear that God said '' you are gods '' and it is very clear that we choose to die like men by not judging the way God wants us to! I want to be what God wants me to be!
It won't hurt you for once if you say that you are wrong Tom!

[adam7gur]

You keep telling me that, but that is not in scripture. Let me give you an example of where following God is specifically called a choice - Joshua 24:22.

Your attitude reminds me so much of the following...
Luke 13:14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.

15The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his from the stall, and lead him away to watering?

16And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

And of the following

John 20: 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

You fail to see all those things that are called the Spirit of the law(Scripture) and you only believe what is called the letter of the law .Be careful , because that was exactly what the Pharisses and the scribes were doing.
Yes , you use Scripture , but so did the Pharissees and the scribes and so does the devil!
In the name of Jesus Christ , this spirit is a wicked one and you have to realize that.

[Tj3]

Psalm 82
1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Notice that in the Greek text v.7 says '' but you die like men'' and not ''you will die like men''and that in v.6 God says '' I have said ..''
It is very clear that God said '' you are gods '' and it is very clear that we choose to die like men by not judging the way God wants us to! I want to be what God wants me to be!
It won't hurt you for once if you say that you are wrong Tom!

Why should I say that I was wrong - there is absolutely nothing in Psalm 82 which endorses the belief that men are gods. It condemns the belief from start to finish, and nowhere in scripture will you find any endorsement of such a teaching.

I note that your primary approach now is to attack me as a person, but that does nothing to support your position either.

[adam7gur]

I note that your primary approach now is to attack me as a person, but that does nothing to support your position either.

Not you Tom , just your way of thinking!