[sndbay]

6 Then God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters." 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 Then God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so.
NKJV

.

Let's note that the firmament is heaven (Genesis 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. )

So we see in Genesis 1:6-8 God has let the firmament of heaven be surrounding of all that He has created.


Genesis 1:9-10 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

We read in these scriptures how that the face of water and it's depth is being divided. And once heaven is put in place, then God allows the dry land to appear calling it earth, and the waters called seas, and God saw it was good.

[Tj3]

Let's note that the firmament is heaven (Genesis 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. )

So we see in Genesis 1:6-8 God has let the firmament of heaven be surrounding of all that He has created.


Genesis 1:9-10 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

We read in these scriptures how that the face of water and it's depth is being divided. And once heaven is put in place, then God allows the dry land to appear calling it earth, and the waters called seas, and God saw it was good.

Genesis 1:1 says "heavens", just as Exodus 20:11 says "heavens" - Ex 20 tells us that everything was made in 6 days.

All scripture needs to be taken in context.

[sndbay]

You can keep claiming that there is a gap, but scripture is clear that there is six days from the creation of the heavens and earth through to the end of creation.

The creation of what we live on and in as earth today was created in 6 days. The unknown and perish of what was before is exactly that, NOT reality of existence.

[sndbay]

Genesis 1:1 says "heavens", just as Exodus 20:11 says "heavens" - Ex 20 tells us that everything was made in 6 days.

All scripture needs to be taken in context.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. KJV

Exd 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. KJV

Heaven in hebrew is plural, and I trust that it is because of the existence in understand that the hebrew accent gives enphasis and pause on "GOD" as being Himself the great worker, separate the worker from His work.

(Deu 4:26) shows the existence of God Himself being heaven and .

[Tj3]

The creation of what we live on and in as earth today was created in 6 days. The unknown and perish of what was before is exactly that, NOT reality of existence.

The root pro0blem that I see with this theory is that there is absolutely nothing in scripture telling us this. It is entirely based upon speculation and assumed silence of scripture between two verses, and the theory was developed simply as an attempt to harmonize between what some saw as a problem existing between the Bible and scientific findings.

We need to base our beliefs upon what the Bible says, not on what it does not say.

[Tj3]

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. KJV

Heaven in hebrew is plural, and I trust that it is because of the existence in understand that the hebrew accent gives enphasis and pause on "GOD" as being Himself the great worker, separate the worker from His work.

Actually, the reason is more simple. The Hebrew word is an all encompassing word meaning anything which is above the earth. Therefore the heavens refers to the sky, the stars, the galaxies, everything above earth which has been cretaed.

Deu 4:26) shows the existence of God Himself being heaven and .

I am reading the verse but I don't see where it says that God is heaven. But if you weish to pursue that line of reason, I could provide you with numerous issues, not the least of which are the various references throughout scripture to the heavens being created, whereas God is not.

[galveston]

The root pro0blem that I see with this theory is that there is absolutely nothing in scripture telling us this. It is entirely based upon speculation and assumed silence of scripture between two verses, and the theory was developed simply as an attempt to harmonize between what some saw as a problem existing between the Bible and scientific findings.

We need to base our beliefs upon what the Bible says, not on what it does not say.

I see no violence to the scriptures in this idea at all.

We have a time line beginning with Adam and that was about 6,000 years ago, according to most chronologists. We DO NOT have a time line from Gen. 1:1.

If the fromer world was covered by water as a result of judgment, you would have exactly the state described by Moses. As to whether the command to Adam meant something other than that spoken to Noah, it would be hard to prove as it is the same word.

Remember, sin did not originate on Earth, but in Heaven. We have NO idea how long ago this happened, or exactly what Lucifer's duties were, but we do know that there has been war between God and Satan for a very long time. (Our time, that is.)

Meanwhile, there is at least some credible evidence that Earth is much older than 6,000 years.

Remember, there was a time when belief in a globe Earth was heresy.

I accept all the Scriptures say.

[Tj3]

I see no violence to the scriptures in this idea at all.

We have a time line beginning with Adam and that was about 6,000 years ago, according to most chronologists. We DO NOT have a time line from Gen. 1:1.

We do - Many places - I gave one example of Exodus 20:11 which says that from genesis 1:1 to the end of creation was 6 days.

Meanwhile, there is at least some credible evidence that Earth is much older than 6,000 years.

There is also credible evidence that it is not.

[galveston]

We do - Many places - I gave one example of Exodus 20:11 which says that from genesis 1:1 to the end of creation was 6 days.

Exod 20:11
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD
(KJV)

6213 `asah (aw-saw');

a primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application (as follows):

KJV-- accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, bring forth, bruise, be busy, X certainly, have the charge of, commit, deal (with), deck, + displease, do, (ready) dress (-ed), (put in) execute (-ion), exercise, fashion, + feast, [fighting-] man, + finish, fit, fly, follow, fulfill, furnish, gather, get, go about, govern, grant, great, + hinder, hold ([a feast]), X indeed, + be industrious, + journey, keep, labour, maintain, make, be meet, observe, be occupied, offer, + officer, pare, bring (come) to pass, perform, pracise, prepare, procure, provide, put, requite, X sacrifice, serve, set, shew, X sin, spend, X surely, take, X thoroughly, trim, X very, + vex, be [warr-] ior, work (-man), yield, use.

As you can see, the word made has a very wide range of possibilities. I highlighted some simply to show that it is possible to see something other than original creation in this passage. And of course, the context here is the giving of the Sabbath observance.


There is also credible evidence that it is not.

True.

[sndbay]

The root pro0blem that I see with this theory is that there is absolutely nothing in scripture telling us this. It is entirely based upon speculation and assumed silence of scripture between two verses, and the theory was developed simply as an attempt to harmonize between what some saw as a problem existing between the Bible and scientific findings.

We need to base our beliefs upon what the Bible says, not on what it does not say.

Absolutely nothing in scripture when we neglect to accept Job 9:6, 2 Peter 3:5, and Jeremiah 4:23 teaching. There was an existence that is now unknown to us. (void, perished, and without form)

The speculation would account for what is written in Job, and Jeremiah, yet that same speculation permits the 6 days in (Exd 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth) Speculation yes it is....

However that speculation does not change my belief which is based on Christ the corner stone. Everything else reaches out from HIM who has shown the way.

The translation from what was written as you and I both known, is an important aspect in identity to all that is written. I thank God that we have the works of Massorah. = The word Massorah is from the root masar, to deliver something into the hand of another, so as to commit it to his trust. Hence the name is given to the small writing referred to, because it contains information necessary to those who trust the Sacred Text was committed, so that they might transcribe it, and hand it down correctly.
cc
http://www.biblestudysite.com/massorah.htm

[sndbay]

Originally Posted by Tj3 #29 Quote
We do - Many places - I gave one example of Exodus 20:11 which says that from genesis 1:1 to the end of creation was 6 days.

Exod 20:11
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD
(KJV)

6213 `asah (aw-saw');

a primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application (as follows):

KJV-- accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, bring forth, bruise, be busy, X certainly, have the charge of, commit, deal (with), deck, + displease, do, (ready) dress (-ed), (put in) execute (-ion), exercise, fashion, + feast, [fighting-] man, + finish, fit, fly, follow, fulfill, furnish, gather, get, go about, govern, grant, great, + hinder, hold ([a feast]), X indeed, + be industrious, + journey, keep, labour, maintain, make, be meet, observe, be occupied, offer, + officer, pare, bring (come) to pass, perform, pracise, prepare, procure, provide, put, requite, X sacrifice, serve, set, shew, X sin, spend, X surely, take, X thoroughly, trim, X very, + vex, be [warr-] ior, work (-man), yield, use.

As you can see, the word made has a very wide range of possibilities. I highlighted some simply to show that it is possible to see something other than original creation in this passage. And of course, the context here is the giving of the Sabbath observance.


There is also credible evidence that it is not.
**************************************************

Tj3

Exd 20:11 examples labour mentioned in Exd 20:9

made H-6213 asah

To do, fashion, accomplish, make

a) (Qal)

1) to do, work, make, produce

a) to do

b) to work

c) to deal (with)

d) to act, act with effect, effect

2) to make

a) to make

b) to produce

c) to prepare

d) to make (an offering)

e) to attend to, put in order

f) to observe, celebrate

g) to acquire (property)

h) to appoint, ordain, institute

I) to bring about

j) to use

k) to spend, pass

b) (Niphal)

1) to be done

2) to be made

3) to be produced

4) to be offered

5) to be observed

6) to be used

c) (Pual) to be made

2) (Piel) to press, squeeze


KJV

[sndbay]

Actually, the reason is more simple. The Hebrew word is an all encompassing word meaning anything which is above the earth. Therefore the heavens refers to the sky, the stars, the galaxies, everything above earth which has been cretaed.
.

As I had shown you the version of King James did not plural the word heaven . Yet I supposed that you were reading from another version which gave the idea that heaven had to be heavens. I offered the reason why your translation might have heavens verse the KJV of heaven.

The Hebrew people understood the meaning heaven as plural in the same manner as God is the creator of all heaven and earth. I am The hebrew did accent and give enphasis and pause on "GOD" as being Himself the great worker, separate the worker from His work.
And God HIMSELF is plural as written in Genesis 1:26.

Off thread...

[N0help4u]

We must have a different King James then.

There are approximately 133 references to the heavens.

Genesis 2:1 (KJV) "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them."

Genesis 2:4 (KJV) "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens."


Tj is right
The first heaven is considered our atmosphere.
The second is the galaxies
etc...

How Many Heavens Are There

As far as the age of the earth
I want to answer this according to the gap theory but I really don't have the time right now to look up the original words and meaning

[galveston]

My apologies to Tom. I intended to break his response and place my response in the middle and at the end. It wound up looking like he said some things that I said.
I'll try not to let that happen again.

[Tj3]

Absolutely nothing in scripture when we neglect to accept Job 9:6, 2 Peter 3:5, and Jeremiah 4:23 teaching. There was an existence that is now unknown to us. (void, perished, and without form)

Let's look at these:

Job 9:6
6 He shakes the earth out of its place,
And its pillars tremble;
NKJV

Earthquakes are well known.

2 Peter 3:5-8
5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
NKJV

Genesis tells us about the flood.

Jer 4:23
23 I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void;
And the heavens, they had no light.
NKJV

Genesis 1:1

These says nothing about a world which was not known - scripture tells us about all three and we certainly still experience the first.

[Tj3]

My apologies to Tom. I intended to break his response and place my response in the middle and at the end. It wound up looking like he said some things that I said.
I'll try not to let that happen again.

No problem. No offense taken. I had noted what happened, and understood.

[Tj3]

Originally Posted by Tj3 #29 Quote
We do - Many places - I gave one example of Exodus 20:11 which says that from genesis 1:1 to the end of creation was 6 days.

Exod 20:11
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD
(KJV)

6213 `asah (aw-saw');

a primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application (as follows):

KJV-- accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, bring forth, bruise, be busy, X certainly, have the charge of, commit, deal (with), deck, + displease, do, (ready) dress (-ed), (put in) execute (-ion), exercise, fashion, + feast, [fighting-] man, + finish, fit, fly, follow, fulfill, furnish, gather, get, go about, govern, grant, great, + hinder, hold ([a feast]), X indeed, + be industrious, + journey, keep, labour, maintain, make, be meet, observe, be occupied, offer, + officer, pare, bring (come) to pass, perform, pracise, prepare, procure, provide, put, requite, X sacrifice, serve, set, shew, X sin, spend, X surely, take, X thoroughly, trim, X very, + vex, be [warr-] ior, work (-man), yield, use.

As you can see, the word made has a very wide range of possibilities. I highlighted some simply to show that it is possible to see something other than original creation in this passage. And of course, the context here is the giving of the Sabbath observance.

What is your point? Are you suggesting that God did not make the heavens and earth?

[Tj3]

sndbay,

We have, in scripture, a second overview of what happened in creation, and it starts with this passage:

Gen 2:4-5
4 This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground;
NKJV

Please note that the start of creation was when the heavens and earth were made in the same day. That was the first day. This is not the creation of the firmament.

Note that Exodus 2);11 is quite specific that the heavens and earth were part of they 6 day creation:

Ex 20:11
11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
NKJV

[sndbay]

What is your point? Are you suggesting that God did not make the heavens and earth?

Please reframe from this type of question. Neither you or I would suggestion this, and I would not even question anyone's integrity in this manner.

[sndbay]

Let's look at these:

Job 9:6
6 He shakes the earth out of its place,
And its pillars tremble;
NKJV

Earthquakes are well known.

Yes we have earthquakes, however, have those earthquarkes ever seal up the stars or cause the sun not to rise. (Job 9:7 Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars. )

2 Peter 3:5-8
5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
NKJV

Genesis tells us about the flood.

Yes again Genesis does tell of a flood. However, can we read somewhere in Noah's flood that the heavens perished? The world perished compared to the destroy man and beast in Naoh's flood. God destroyed the corrupt flesh verse 6:13.
(Genesis 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. )

Take reference of verse (2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word) And I realize should you remain doubtful to this flood of water being different then Noah's, then it makes no difference in the outcome. However I view this as heavens and earth was a new creation from what was and now unknown to us.

Jer 4:23
23 I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void;
And the heavens, they had no light.
NKJV

Genesis 1:1

These says nothing about a world which was not known - scripture tells us about all three and we certainly still experience the first.

Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Question: the land desolate yet will I make a full end?

Jeremiah 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.