[speechlesstx]

It funny how when I post it it's an isolated case but when you post it it's representative of the whole system. Yes, I'm laughing at you.

What's even funnier is I never said or implied "it's representative of the whole system." I posted the article without comment... and, I haven't changed my name to "Daily Mail Reporter." Hope you still have your sense of humor.

I will highlight something from the article for you though, 'This is a national problem, there are not enough resources in the NHS and it is about prioritising."

[excon]

Hello:

You guys are starting to sound like Olbermann and O'Reilly. Oy vey!

excon

[speechlesstx]

Hello:

You guys are starting to sound like Olbermann and O'Reilly. Oy vey!

At least now I know you like O'Reilly... oops. :D

[cozyk]

No health care is denied any Canadian, new or otherwise. We have all paid into it over the years through employee deduction (it is now up to the employer to make these contributions). I am quite happy the way I am treated, and I imagine others are too.

Where do you hear these stories ? It is up to the individual to keep on top of his/her healthcare, make appts. show up for appts. for procedure. No one else can do that for them.

I am in healthcare, as you know, I know how the system works, and from my standpoint it works perfectly for my clients, who by the way, come out of the hospital into homecare, cared for by Personal Support Workers, paid by socialized medicine until they can function on their own.

So, where do we fall down on the job ?

tick

I was happy to hear this from you. My daughter is married to a Canadian. She is here in Atlanta right now, going through the immigration procedure. She is going for "permanent resident" status. Health care was something that I was concerned about. I want my child to be taken care of when needed. Thank you for your input.;)

[ETWolverine]

Tick,

Where you fall down on the job is with regard to rationing of health care.

Your country lacks doctors. There aren't enough of them to go around because doctors are underpaid by the government and there is a flat fee system. Better doctors leave Canada for other places where they can earn more and charge whatever the market will bear for their services. This leaves your system understaffed.

Your country lacks diagnostic equipment such as MRIs. These units are expensive, and in a system where the government determines how many there should be and where they should go, there is inevitably a shortage of critical equipment.

As a result of these critical shortages of personnel and equipment, there are lines and rationing of care. Something that takes a week to treat in the USA ends up taking months just to go through diagnosis in Canada, and then even more time while Canadians wait to be treated.

Then there is the issue of medicine development and approval. While it is true that new meds in the USA might take time to be approved by insurance companies, it is nothing compared to the way the Canadian government regularly denies the use of new meds for patients because of the expense. Older, less effective meds are used instead.

As a result of longer lines and the decisions not to use newer meds, your cancer survival rates are significantly lower than ours. We have the highest overall cancer survival rates in the world. The USA's overall survival rates are 91.9% compared to 82.5% in Canada.

CTV.ca | Canada gets high ranking for cancer survival rates

Here are some other interesting statistics from the Frazier Institute's 2007 report.

Time waiting to be seen in ER
Less than 1 hour:
Canada - 39%
USA - 53%

4 hours or more:
Canada: 24%
USA: 12%


Wait time for specialist:
Less than one week
Canada: 10%
USA: 20%

More than 4 weeks
Canada: 57%
USA: 23%

Wait for elective surgery
Less than 1 month
Canada: 15%
USA: 53%

4 months or more
Canada: 33%
USA: 8%

Overall system view:
Only minor changes needed, system works well
Canada: 21%
USA: 23%

Fundamental change needed
Canada: 61%
USA: 44%


THAT is where you are falling down.

Elliot

[tickle]

I said I work in heathcare Wolverine. So I have a front row seat. Our SMALL TOWN, I say 5000 residents has a state of the art hospital and an MRI. I don't see that as following down on the job. There are cancer treatment facilities within a one hour drive each way. One in Kingston, Ont. And one in Oshawa, On. And several in Toronto. I don't see where we have a problem.

I should be retired, but, have diabetes and some other health issues. My meds are paid for by the government (I pay $6.00 per prescription for my part) because I am on old age security at 67 and I have only the best called up by my doctor. I know if I need medical assistance I can go into my hospital at a drop of the hat. I don't wait for any procedures, I can have them the next day. I am only a drop in the, bucket. I wonder how the other part of Ontario is treated.

I care for seniors and non seniors every day during my job with Cdn. Red Cross. I KNOW what they have accessed, what ops they have had, what they will have to have and I KNOW they are treated properly.

And being in the front line of healthcare, I can assure you that there is no shortage of doctors in our part of Ontario.

Where do you as a non-Canadian get off with your opinion anyway. You are only reading stats (old ones at that), reading opinions of probably non-Canadians. I am living my dream of having good healthcare over 65.

If you Google 'MRIs in use in Canada' on Google, there is a wealth of information that makes your information quite unsatisfactory.

This sort of makes your argument laughable.

[speechlesstx]

Obama: The Grand Strategy, By Charles Krauthammer

Unified theory of Obamaism, fifth (final?) installment:

In the service of his ultimate mission -- the leveling of social inequalities -- President Obama offers a tripartite social democratic agenda: nationalized health care, federalized education (ultimately guaranteed through college) and a cash-cow carbon tax (or its equivalent) to subsidize the other two.

Problem is, the math doesn't add up. Not even a carbon tax would pay for Obama's vastly expanded welfare state. Nor will Midwest Democrats stand for a tax that would devastate their already crumbling region.

What is obviously required is entitlement reform, meaning Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid. That's where the real money is -- trillions saved that could not only fund hugely expensive health and education programs but also restore budgetary balance.

Except that Obama has offered no real entitlement reform. His universal health-care proposal would increase costs by perhaps $1 trillion. Medicare/Medicaid reform is supposed to decrease costs.

Obama's own budget projections show staggering budget deficits going out to 2019. If he knows his social agenda is going to drown us in debt, what's he up to?

He has an idea. But he dare not speak of it yet. He has only hinted. When asked in his March 24 news conference about the huge debt he's incurring, Obama spoke vaguely of "additional adjustments" that will be unfolding in future budgets.

Rarely have two more anodyne words carried such import. "Additional adjustments" equals major cuts in Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid.

Social Security is relatively easy. A bipartisan commission (like the 1983 Alan Greenspan commission) recommends some combination of means testing for richer people, increasing the retirement age and a technical change in the inflation measure (indexing benefits to prices instead of wages). The proposal is brought to Congress for a no-amendment up-or-down vote. Done.

The hard part is Medicare and Medicaid. In an aging population, how do you keep them from blowing up the budget? There is only one answer: rationing.

Why do you think the stimulus package pours $1.1 billion into medical "comparative effectiveness research"? It is the perfect setup for rationing. Once you establish what is "best practice" for expensive operations, medical tests and aggressive therapies, you've laid the premise for funding some and denying others.

It is estimated that a third to a half of one's lifetime health costs are consumed in the last six months of life. Accordingly, Britain's National Health Service can deny treatments it deems not cost-effective -- and if you're old and infirm, the cost-effectiveness of treating you plummets. In Canada, they ration by queuing. You can wait forever for so-called elective procedures like hip replacements.

Rationing is not quite as alien to America as we think. We already ration kidneys and hearts for transplant according to survivability criteria as well as by queuing. A nationalized health insurance system would ration everything from MRIs to intensive care by myriad similar criteria.

The more acute thinkers on the left can see rationing coming, provoking Slate blogger Mickey Kaus to warn of the political danger. "Isn't it an epic mistake to try to sell Democratic health care reform on this basis? Possible sales pitch: 'Our plan will deny you unnecessary treatments!' . . . Is that really why the middle class will sign on to a revolutionary multitrillion-dollar shift in spending -- so the government can decide their life or health 'is not worth the price'?"

My own preference is for a highly competitive, privatized health insurance system with a government-subsidized transition to portability, breaking the absurd and ruinous link between health insurance and employment. But if you believe that health care is a public good to be guaranteed by the state, then a single-payer system is the next best alternative. Unfortunately, it is fiscally unsustainable without rationing.

Social Security used to be the third rail of American politics. Not anymore. Health-care rationing is taking its place -- which is why Obama, the consummate politician, knows to offer the candy (universality) today before serving the spinach (rationing) tomorrow.

Taken as a whole, Obama's social democratic agenda is breathtaking. And the rollout has thus far been brilliant. It follows Kaus's advice to "give pandering a chance" and adheres to the Democratic tradition of being the party that gives things away, while leaving the green-eyeshade stinginess to those heartless Republicans.

It will work for a while, but there is no escaping rationing. In the end, the spinach must be served.

[ETWolverine]

I said I work in heathcare Wolverine. So I have a front row seat. Our SMALL TOWN, i say 5000 residents has a state of the art hospital and an MRI. I dont see that as following down on the job. There are cancer treatment facilities within a one hour drive each way. One in Kingston, Ont. and one in Oshawa, On. and several in Toronto. I dont see where we have a problem.

I should be retired, but, have diabetes and some other health issues. My meds are paid for by the government (I pay $6.00 per prescription for my part) because I am on old age security at 67 and I have only the best called up by my doctor. I know if I need medical assistance I can go into my hospital at a drop of the hat. I dont wait for any procedures, I can have them the next day. I am only a drop in the, bucket. I wonder how the other part of Ontario is treated.

I care for seniors and non seniors every day during my job with Cdn. Red Cross. I KNOW what they have accessed, what ops they have had, what they will have to have and I KNOW they are treated properly.

And being in the front line of healthcare, I can assure you that there is no shortage of doctors in our part of Ontario.

Where do you as a non-Canadian get off with your opinion anyway. You are only reading stats (old ones at that), reading opinions of probably non-Canadians. I am living my dream of having good healthcare over 65.

This sort of makes your argument laughable.

I didn't make up these statistics, Tick. Most of them came from YOUR country's medical statistics. The stats aren't that old ---2 years old for the ones from the Frazier Institute. FYI, the Frazier Institute is a Canadian-Based health care thinktank, and CTV News is a Canadian broadcast company. No non-Canadians in the mix.

As to where I get off with my opinion... Obama is proposing a medical system based on the Canadian system. Why shouldn't we study your system, learn about it, and find out if it really works or not?

And from a statistical standpoint, your system is not as effective or as efficient as our, in terms of outcomes and availability of services. That fact is not open for debate. The statistics are there for anyone to review. The fact that you, luckily, have not experienced that pattern is a very good thing. Perhaps because of your connection to the medical system in Canada you get preferential treatment. Perhaps not. The fact is that you do not have experience that matches the ongoing trends of your country just means that you are luckier than many. Good for you, and I hope that this continues to be your experience. But it is not the experience of many of your countrymen.

And knowing that, I have no desire for our statistical outcomes to lower themselves to match yours. That is the basis and reason for my opinion regarding the Canadian health system.

Coincidentally, I hold the same opinion of the UK's, Australia's, and the EU's medical systems. I also hold a similar opinion of Israel's government-run system. I'm not picking on Canada. I'm picking on every system of nationalized health care that has failed to meet the same levels of care as the USA's private system.

[cozyk]

I live in the US. I hear stories of people not getting their kidney transplant ,etc. because they don't have the money. In my opinion no one should ever be denied health care because of money. Not everyone qualifies for medicare, or medicaid, Their employer doesn't provide health ins. They don't fall into the poverty level, but neither can they afford health ins. There are too many who fall between the cracks in this country, Ins. Should be available to everyone.

[ETWolverine]

I live in the US. I hear stories of people not getting their kidney transplant ,etc. because they don't have the money. In my opinion no one should ever be denied health care because of money. Not everyone qualifies for medicare, or medicaid,. Their employer doesn't provide health ins. They don't fall into the poverty level, but neither can they afford health ins. There are too many who fall between the cracks in this country, Ins. should be available to everyone.

CozyK,

If anyone in the USA was denied a kidney transplant or use of a dialysis machine because of inability to pay, then the hospital in question should be sued, because that is against the law. In the USA, no patient may be turned away from necessary medical services because of lack of ability to pay.

Please also keep inm mind that not being able to afford medical insurance is not the same as not receiving medical CARE. In the USA there are plenty of people without medical insurance. But NOBODY has to go without medical care. Anyone who does go without medical care is doing so out of lack of knowledge of the law or for their own personal reasons.

You should also be sure to corroborate any stories you hear with some form of evidence. I hear stories all the time too about bad medical care or medical care refused for lack of ability to pay. Most of them (not all) turn out to be false, or else there are parts of the story that weren't given over in the original version. Usually, if a patient dies due to lack of treatment, it is because they didn't want to stay in the hospital because they were afraid of their illegal alien status or something like that. It had nothing to do with being refused treatment. So you should corroborate these stories before assuming they are true.

Elliot

[cozyk]

CozyK,

If anyone in the USA was denied a kidney transplant or use of a dialysis machine because of inability to pay, then the hospital in question should be sued, because that is against the law. In the USA, no patient may be turned away from necessary medical services because of lack of ability to pay.

Please also keep inm mind that not being able to afford medical insurance is not the same as not receiving medical CARE. In the USA there are plenty of people without medical insurance. But NOBODY has to go without medical care. Anyone who does go without medical care is doing so out of lack of knowledge of the law or for their own personal reasons.

You should also be sure to corroborate any stories you hear with some form of evidence. I hear stories all the time too about bad medical care or medical care refused for lack of ability to pay. Most of them (not all) turn out to be false, or else there are parts of the story that weren't given over in the original version. Usually, if a patient dies due to lack of treatment, it is because they didn't want to stay in the hospital because they were afraid of their illegal alien status or something like that. It had nothing to do with being refused treatment. So you should corroborate these stories before assuming they are true.

Elliot

Are you telling me that no American falls between the cracks?

[JoeCanada76]

ETWolverine,

Does not know anything.

[tickle]

Wolverine, I am a Personal Support Worker with cdn. Red cross, I don't get preferential treatment. I don't have pull if I need a medical procedure. I have to go to my doctor for a referral and a requisition the same as everyone else. I follow the usual channels, but I don't have to wait.

Tick

[JoeCanada76]

wolverine, I am a Personal Support Worker with cdn. red cross, I dont get preferential treatment. I dont have pull if I need a medical procedure. I have to go to my doctor for a referral and a requisition the same as everyone else. I follow the usual channels, but I dont have to wait.

tick

I am a regular canadian. Everything that tickle said is true. I live in a small town as well. I have no problems getting mri or other things done. No problem going to the doctor, no problem going to hospital, no problem getting anything that is necessary needs to be done. My wife is also epileptic and we have had nothing but amazing things done when medical care is needed. It has not cost a cent.

[excon]

Hello Canadians:

There's something in your water. You obviously don't know when you're being ill served. That's why you should listen to us Americans. We're the world leader, and we didn't get that way without knowing what's going on. We know more about your system than YOU do.

You silly Canadians.

excon

[JoeCanada76]

Lol

[tickle]

I am SO glad there are other Canadians here to uphold our structure in healthcare. Thanks Jesushelper for chiming in. Have not heard from NeedKarma in a few days, but it is gratifying. My son chimes in and says he is happy with services in Toronto General, he has a defib and has to have regular 6 months. Check ups. His cardiogolist, Dr. Stephen Wigle was just awarded the order of Canada by Governor Jean for his contribution for the cardio field.

We are so lucky, jesushelper, and so blessed.

Tick, regards

[cozyk]

I am a regular canadian. Everything that tickle said is true. I live in a small town as well. I have no problems getting mri or other things done. No problem going to the doctor, no problem going to hospital, no problem getting anything that is necessarily needs to be done. My wife is also epileptic and we have had nothing but amazing things done when medical care is needed. It has not cost a cent.

I feel good having my daughter move there after your and Ticks endorsements.
Thank you.:)

[tickle]

I feel good having my daughter move there after your and Ticks endorsements.
Thank you.:)

No problem cozyk. I am sorry you had to read through all the negative publicity and I can assure you that your daughter will be well taken care of.

Regards

Tick

[cozyk]

Are you telling me that no American falls between the cracks?

Are you going to address my question ET?