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speechlesstx · Apr 17, 2009, 05:13 AM

Originally Posted by excon

Hello:

Seems to me that secession, being treason, is worth investigating. Now, I don't know if I'd wanna call Texas a right wing fringe group, but the Republican governor is trying to make it that way.

As noted before, Gov. Goodhair is just a politician and he feels threatened by Kay Bailey Hutchinson so he's ramping up the rhetoric, because Texans - not extremists - but Texans ARE an independent lot just as he said. But, is there anything in the constitution that says a state can't secede? Wasn't our country's revolution a secession from Great Britain? Some folks in Vermont seemed to think it a good idea a couple of years ago.

N0help4u · Apr 17, 2009, 05:18 AM

Texas and Montana both have a clause in their joining the United States that they can secessed if they feel the United States is not following the constitution and our freedoms for the people.
So if and when they do --I might just make Texas my new place to live.

excon · Apr 17, 2009, 05:24 AM

Hello again,

No, they can't secede. It's TREASON! Tom wrote why above.

excon

speechlesstx · Apr 17, 2009, 05:35 AM

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again,

No, they can't secede. It's TREASON!! Tom wrote why above.

excon

How you going to charge an entire state with treason? Just curious. I mean, are the feds going to attack us or what? Note: I'm not arguing for secession.

N0help4u · Apr 17, 2009, 05:35 AM

I always heard they could.
I think that the government pushing socializism and dictatorship on us is a form of treason.
They send our military to fight for our freedom and now they want to claim we are the terrorists if we believe in freedom of speech and Americans rights.
So we sit here and see how far they will push this and then one day it is going to come to even many lefties realizing what we got ourselves into then they will wish they had stopped things before they got that far.

speechlesstx · Apr 17, 2009, 06:32 AM

On treason from article II of the constitution:

Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted.

How does secession fit that definition?

tomder55 · Apr 17, 2009, 06:44 AM

Steve ;correct .In fact there was no secession during the so called Civil War .It was in fact a revolution.Lincoln had no choice as President but to wage the war.

In a March 15, 1833 letter to Daniel Webster congratulating him on a speech opposing nullification, Madison discussed “revolution” versus “secession”:

I return my thanks for the copy of your late very powerful Speech in the Senate of the United S. It crushes "nullification" and must hasten the abandonment of "Secession." But this dodges the blow by confounding the claim to secede at will, with the right of seceding from intolerable oppression. The former answers itself, being a violation, without cause, of a faith solemnly pledged. The latter is another name only for revolution, about which there is no theoretic controversy.

Right of Revolution: James Madison to Daniel Webster

speechlesstx · Apr 17, 2009, 08:01 AM

Now that we've settled secession, back to the unhinged leftist view of conservatives. And seriously, I want to know when reasonable people are going to hold them accountable on their hypocrisy and the dangerous, intolerant BS they spew just like you do Ann Coulter. The latest from Janeane Garafalo (and her pathetic buddy KO).

Garafalo said the tea parties were about one thing, racism.

JANEANE GAROFALO: Thank you. You know, there's nothing more interesting than seeing a bunch of racists become confused and angry at a speech they're not quite certain what he's saying. It sounds right and then it doesn't make sense. Which, let's be very honest about what this is about. It's not about bashing Democrats, it's not about taxes, they have no idea what the Boston tea party was about, they don't know their history at all. This is about hating a black man in the White House. This is racism straight up. That is nothing but a bunch of teabagging rednecks. And there is no way around that. And you know, you can tell these type of right wingers anything and they'll believe it, except the truth. You tell them the truth and they become -- it's like showing Frankenstein's monster fire. They become confused, and angry and highly volatile. That guy, causing them feelings they don't know, because their limbic brain, we've discussed this before, the limbic brain inside a right-winger or Republican or conservative or your average white power activist, the limbic brain is much larger in their head space than in a reasonable person, and it's pushing against the frontal lobe. So their synapses are misfiring. Is Bernie Goldberg listening?

OLBERMANN: Russ.

GAROFALO: Because Bernie might not have heard this when I said this the first time. So, Bernie, this is for you. It is a neurological problem we're dealing with.

OLBERMAN: Well, what do we do about it, though? I mean, our friend in Pensacola there who played them like a $3 fiddle and led them right down the garden path with nothing but facts and then they went, wait a minute, that doesn't sound like Rush Limbaugh. If you can't get them to make that last leap to what are we all doing here, Howard Johnson is wrong, how do you break through that?

GAROFALO: I don't think you do, for most of them. This is a -- it's almost pathological or elevated to a philosophy or lifestyle. And again, this is about racism. It could be any issue, any port in the storm. These guys hate that a black guy is in the White House. But they immigrant bash, they pretend taxes and tea bags, and like I said, most of them probably couldn't tell you thing one about taxation without representation, the Boston tea party, the British imperialism, whatever the history lesson has to be. But these people, all white for the most part, unless there's some people with Stockholm syndrome there.

OLBERMANN: And, I didn't see them, the fact that they weren't near the cameras which is bad strategy on the part of the people that were staging this at Fox.

GAROFALO: True, and Fox News loves to foment this anti-intellectualism because that's their bread and butter. If you have a cerebral electorate, Fox news goes down the toilet, very, very fast. But it is sick and sad to see Neil Cavuto doing that. They've been doing it for years, that's why Roger Ailes and Rupert Murdoch started this venture, is to disinform and to coarsen and dumb down a certain segment of the electorate. But what is really, I didn't know there were so many racists left. I didn't know that. I -- you know, because as I've said, the Republican hype and the conservative movement has now crystallized into the white power movement.

OLBERMANN: Is that not a bad, long-term political strategy because even though your point is terrifying that there are that many racists left, the flip side of it is there aren't that many racists left.

GAROFALO: They're the minority, but literally tens of people showed up to this thing across the country.

OLBERMANN: But if you spear your television network or your political party towards a bunch of guys looking who are just looking for a reason to yell at the black president, eventually you will marginalize yourself out of business, won't you?

GAROFALO: Here's what the right-wing has in, there's no shortage of the natural resources of ignorance, apathy, hate, fear. As long as those things are in the collective conscious and unconscious, the Republicans will have some votes. Fox News will have some viewers. But what else have they got? If they didn't do that, who is going to watch -- you know what I mean? They have tackled that elusive clam -- you know, the clam, the 18 to 35 clam -- klan. Klan. With a k demo. But, you know, who else is Fox talking to? I mean, what is it urban older white guys? And the girlfriend, and, you know, the women who suffer from Stockholm syndrome gain. There's a lot of Stockholm syndrome, is what I'm saying ultimately. What else do you want to know?

OLBERMANN: What happens if somebody who's at one of these things hurt somebody?

GAROFALO: That is an unfortunate byproduct since the dawn of time of a volatile group like this of the limbic brain. Violence unfortunately may or may not ensue. It always, it's like a, the Republican Party now depends upon immigrant bashing and hating the black guy in the White House. Will people act on that? It's not new. But, you know, Fox doesn't mind fomenting it. Michelle Bachmann doesn't mine fomenting it. Glenn Beck doesn't mind fomenting it.

And obviously she and Olby don't mind fomenting hate while complaining about Republicans fomenting hate. How "cerebral" does one have to be before they can't recognize they're engaging in the EXACT behavior they're simultaneously complaining of? If being cerebral means being an ignorant a$$hole I'll just suffer with my swollen limbic brain.

galveston · Apr 17, 2009, 01:09 PM

Suppose for a moment that you have access to virtually unlimited sums of money.
Suppose you hate the US as it has existed for its previous life.
Suppose you wanted to destroy Constitutional rights.

Now suppose you demonize every voice that opposes you, blaming them for every random act of violence that happens.
Suppose you control most of the news outlets.
Suppose you have a divided nation, a virtual powder keg.

Suppose you sacrifice the President, blame conservatives in general for that act.

Suppose great civil unrest breaks out.

Then suppose your allies declare martial law and suspend the Constitution?

All conservatives should pray for the safety, if not the sucess, of Obama.

I know it's far fetched, but history shows that strange things do sometimes happen.

excon · Apr 17, 2009, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by galveston

Suppose you sacrifice the President, blame conservatives in general for that act.

Hello again, gal:

This is the second time you've mentioned this stupid stuff. Have you seen your doctor lately?

excon

speechlesstx · Apr 17, 2009, 01:48 PM

I've had enough with supposing, that's what's wrong with the DHS report. True, the agency did issue a report in January on left-wing extremists, listing specific groups, specific attacks, and the specific threat, unlike the unspecified BS in this report.

However, the left is claiming this is entirely a Bush document in spite of the fact that it's dated April 7th and DHS published it in spite of concerns raised by their own civil liberties officials. There must have been some rush to get this report out... like before the tea parties. No you say? Read on...

Md. Guard Issues Warning to Staff about Local TEA Party Protestors

CALLAWAY, Md. (April 15, 2009) - A document issued by the Maryland National Guard on April 9 warns full-time Guard personnel to be aware of threats from local citizens protesting income taxes during grass roots events known as TEA (Taxed Enough Already) Parties -- one of which was held on Solomons Island March 22. The Guard document, "Planned TEA Party Protests (FPCON Advisory 09-004)," was believed to have first been revealed by a blog called The Jawa Report. A call today to Col. Kohler, Md. National Guard Public Affairs in Baltimore, confirmed the authenticity of the document. The document was officially classified as UNCLASSIFIED/FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY (U/FOUO).

The Guard document describes the TEA Party protests as a movement. "Numerous entities have formed recently to express displeasure/anger over recent federal/state government actions: more taxes, increased spending, higher deficits, a surge of borrowing to pay for it all, bailout of the financial institutions," stated the document under the heading of SITUATION.

The document appears to treat protestors as potential terrorists. The Point of Contact is identified as "Antiterrorism Program Coordinator" and provides a redacted army.mil email address.

The verbiage in the document advises Guard personnel to prepare for the worst. "Commanders are encouraged to update alert rosters and review emergency evacuation plans/rally points. Ensure all facilities have emergency phone lists posted (i.e. FBI, FIRE, POLICE, HOSPITALS, EMS, ETC…). Be aware of and avoid local protests."

Despite the alarmist warnings in the document, the lead paragraph states, "there is no known direct threat to MDNG facilities and MDNG members, they may become a target of opportunity during plan protest activities throughout Maryland."

The Guard document follows closely on the heels of a Dept. of Homeland Security document, released on April 7 that profiles American citizens who are concerned about gun rights and the "current economic and political climate" as potential rightwing extremists and domestic terrorists. The document is titled "Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment" and was recently profiled in a Washington Times article.

Brace yourself for this one, ex:

Yet another Homeland Security document from the Missouri Information Analysis Center (MIAC), leaked to the press in March, profiles vocal supporters of Ron Paul, Bob Barr and Chuck Baldwin as potential domestic terrorists. The so-called MIAC document also cautions police to be aware of citizens carrying a copy of the U.S. Constitution, labeling the document as "political paraphernalia."

Carrying a copy of the constitution - AKA "political paraphernalia" - "constitutes" a potential threat?

tomder55 · Apr 17, 2009, 02:36 PM

Evidently the comments about returning vets was spaghetti thrown at the wall that did not stick. After hearing from the people the outrage over the "footnote " to the DHS doc. DHS Sec Janet Napolitano said yesterday that no offense was intended .

"If there's one part of that report I would rewrite, in the wordsmithing Washingtonese that goes on after the fact, it would be that footnote."

Wordsmithing ? Washintonese ? Gobbledegook!!
I see nothing in her comments that indicates she intends to scrub the doc. Of the content.
And she won't... after all ;Timothy McVeigh was a vet. Napolitano was a prosecutor investigating aspects of the Oklahoma City bombing . It must've left a lasting prejudice in her mind.

Ralph Peters has it right . She needs to be fired!!
http://foxforum.blogs.foxnews.com/20...olitano_janet/

Ron Paul is a little off base on certain issues . That hardly makes him a terrorist .
The Modern Militia Movement-Missouri MIAC Strategic Report 20Feb09 - Magazines & Newspapers, Terrorist, and Reports-

Lets face the facts ;Obama singled out gun totin bible thumpin red necks during the campaign for derision. None of this should come as a surprise. And besides ;Johnny Jihad was a white dude also .

N0help4u · Apr 17, 2009, 02:53 PM

Last time my son came home from Iraq about a month ago I was wondering what about the vets how are they going to feel if our country does turn socialist/dictator? I am sure they will not be happy that they fought for our freedom only to return here and see many of our rights are gone.
Mike Savage has some lawsuits now one is for DHS to reveal what is in the classified version.

N0help4u · Apr 17, 2009, 02:58 PM

Oh and my last comment on secession...
It would be treason for any state to break away but what is it called when the government takes away state sovereignty and tells us how everything has to be?

tomder55 · Apr 17, 2009, 03:27 PM

I have no problem with states reasserting their rights described in the 9th and 10th amendments .Where Guv. Perry stated that I'm with him. I also don't for one second believe he takes the idea of secession seriously . But he has to take a little more care in his rhetoric .

My cousin sent me some comments by NCOs over in Iraq over the recent events.
I'd say many of them have a sarcatic overtone
Here are some of the cleaner ones

-I want to thank you for the elite terrorism How-To training.

-So the people fighting terrorism are identified as potential
Terrorists now?

-it is not yet illegal for states or regions to want to maintain
Some degree of individuality. If we wanted a central government to do
Everything without our consent and then charge us for it, we
Would all still be British citizens.

The states are there to be a check
And balance counter-weight when one party controls the legislative
And executive branch.

So what they are saying is that soldiers who have come over here
And to Afghanistan to fight terrorism are going to become what they
Fough against ? HHHHHHmmmmmmmmm I think my bullsh*t meter just went
Off.

N0help4u · Apr 17, 2009, 03:36 PM

I really doubt any state will try to secede until it is too a really bad point whether that is 5 years from now or 20.
Here is a page that looks to me like Montana does have it in writing that they can secede
Montana State Sovereignty Resolution

speechlesstx · Apr 17, 2009, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by tomder55

-So the people fighting terrorism are identified as potential
terrorists now?

-it is not yet illegal for states or regions to want to maintain
some degree of individuality. If we wanted a central government to do
everything without our consent and then charge us for it, we
would all still be British citizens.

The states are there to be a check
and balance counter-weight when one party controls the legislative
and executive branch.

So what they are saying is that soldiers who have come over here
and to Afghanistan to fight terrorism are going to become what they
fough against ? HHHHHHmmmmmmmmm I think my bullsh*t meter just went
off.

Excellent.

galveston · Apr 17, 2009, 03:53 PM

Hey Ex, do I call your weird ideas stupid?
Let's play nice now!

inthebox · Apr 17, 2009, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Now that we've settled secession, back to the unhinged leftist view of conservatives. And seriously, I want to know when reasonable people are going to hold them accountable on their hypocrisy and the dangerous, intolerant BS they spew just like you do Ann Coulter. The latest from Janeane Garafalo (and her pathetic buddy KO).

Garafalo said the tea parties were about one thing, racism.

And obviously she and Olby don't mind fomenting hate while complaining about Republicans fomenting hate. How "cerebral" does one have to be before they can't recognize they're engaging in the EXACT behavior they're simultaneously complaining of? If being cerebral means being an ignorant a$$hole I'll just suffer with my swollen limbic brain.

Garafalo must not realize that people other than white people, can be and are consevative.
That is her own brand of racism.

She may be a good actress, but all she has to do is read words written for her and then emote. Hey that sounds like Obama ;). Does she write anything? A book , a column? Is she capable?

G&P

tomder55 · Apr 18, 2009, 02:45 AM

Gal's comment may have pushed the envelope ,but there is a degree of plausability when considering an administration that openly states a crisis is too good to waste.

A nut job shoots at cops in Pittsburg and he becomes someone who listens to ,and is influenced by Glen Beck comments on Fox. Someone in Mo. With a Ron Paul bumper sticker had better follow the traffic rules to the letter because the State told the troopers to watch that car.

This was the SOP of the Clintonoids also. After Oklahoma City everyone who was critical of Clintoon was practicing the politics of personal destruction. If you opposed the "assault rifle" ban you were a member of a right wing militia.

With this memo and the complicit media ,who's to say that the Obots are not shaping the debate simularily ?

Protesters at "tea parties " become a threat who at a minimum need to be mocked ,ridiculed, demonized and silenced,with vulgar urban dictionary comparisons.

The timing of the memo's release certainly was quite a coincidence. By the time they are through the impression left is that when the tea parties are over ,the tri-cornered hats come off and the white sheets are donned.

I have seen gal's thoughts and variations of it posted both here and throughout the web. I pray the President lives a nice long life and passes away at a ripe old age from natural causes long after his disastrous public career ends... remembered by Americans as a discredited President who over reached at the beginning of his term;and created such a backlash that the American people finally "voted all the bums out" .