[JoeT777]

And I am supposed to believe you after that?????

Well wasn't it you who said that Catholics weren't infallible?

[Wondergirl]

Well wasn't it you who said that Catholics weren't infallible?

You're so darn cute, Joe!

[gromitt82]

[QUOTE=lenox263;1638334]Here is My Reasons

Why am I not Roman Catholic?

My friend Lenox 263,

I have just come across your interesting and somewhat biased (in my opinion, of course) post.

Allow me to refer to it for a while.

First, I assume you are a Christian, which implies that both you and I (who am a Roman Catholic follower) agree in the most important argument of them all... i.e.: we both believe in Jesus Christ, as the Son of God, and therefore, God Himself!

This said, let me try to give you my opinion to the different points you raise.

1 – The Encyclopedia clearly points out that Tertulian, around the tear 200, in Carthage, already said: "We Christians wear out our foreheads with the sign of the cross"...

Furthermore, not only Catholics use the sign. Martin Luther's positive personal view, prescribed the use of the sign in Book of Common Prayer and the defense of the sign of the Cross in Anglican Canon Law in 1604.

As for the prayers for the dead these, according to Catholic teachings, are bound up inseparably with our belief in the doctrine of purgatory and the more general doctrine of the communion of the saints, which is an article of the Apostle's Creed. Other than that Scripture references concerning the dead are numerous and rather explicit.

But I think, this is beside the point. Even if both the prayers for the dead and the sign of the Cross were dated ONLY one year ago, could you please explain what is wrong with them?

2. (Wax Candles) - No matter how much I try I fail to see any connection with when they were introduced and the RCC or any other denomination. Please explain, if you can!

3. (Veneration of angels and dead saints) - The First Commandment says “Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.. (... ) Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them (Exodus 20:3-5). It is of course obvious that the emphasis of this law is in the first and last clauses -- "no strange gods", "thou shalt not adore them". Angels and saints are NOT gods. In addition, venerating them is absolutely optional.

4. (The Mass, as a daily celebration) - The earliest surviving account of the celebration of the Eucharist or the Mass in Rome is that of Saint Justin Martyr (died c. 165), as mentioned in chapter 67 of his First Apology . However, you should realize that the Catholic Mass is nothing but the celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice that Jesus established in the Last Supper. So we could generously grant Jesus the privilege of having said the First Mass!

5. (The worship of Mary) - Of course, if you do not believe that Jesus Christ is God Incarnate, then there is no need to discuss the subject. John said “Jesus is the ‘only-begotten Son’” (John 3:16)... It is just a matter of Faith.

6. (Priests began to dress differently... ) – Fantastic! And in the 21st century we ALL dress alightly different than they did in the 1st century! So what?

• 7. (The doctrine of Purgatory) - And.. If you do not like the idea, do you accept that of Heaven and Hell?

8. (The Latin language:.) - 1 Cor. 14:9 clearly states: “Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the ai “ Latin in the 16th century WAS NOT an unknown language, nor it is now. As a matter of fact, Latin has been traditionally used as a common language for members of the church from different countries to understand each other. The Popes encyclical letters are originally written in Latin, although the Mass right now is celebrated in the language of each country...

9. (The Bible teaches that we pray to God alone::.) - Praying to saints and to the Virgin Mary is NOT compulsory. It is just a matter of personal devotion. It is like is you are in a big Hospital with a famous head doctor responsible of everything, but you have become more familiar with one of the nurses for those things that are not so. Important.

10. (The Papacy is of pagan origin... ) - We, Catholics, believe in Jesus’ words: “You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the netherworld will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven”.(Matthew 16:18) Jesus Christ repeats his mandate to Peter (John, 21, 15) Luke cites a mandate from Jesus to Peter to “strengthen his brothers” (Luke, 22, 31). As for St. Peter having lived in Rome, Lutheran Adolf Harnack stated, “Tendentious-Protestant and tendentious-critical prejudice questioned the martyrdom of Peter in Rome. Both errors led to the truth”. Still, each one is entitled to his/her own beliefs on the subject. But this does not alter our belief in the Son of God.

11. (The kissing of the Pope's... ) - Holy Mackerel! People also used to walk backwards when exiting from the Hall Throne. Would that be a reason for becoming a catholic or else? Nowadays, nobody kisses the Pope’s feet anymore..

12. (The Temporal power of the Popes... ) - I would say that there have been many Popes that as human beings as they were giving priority to their earthen whims rather than to Jesus’ message. They have most likely already received their punishment from the Almighty. We all know that no Church (whether Catholic or else) is perfect, as it is ruled by men. What is perfect is Jesus’ Message and Law...

13. (Worship of cross, of images and relics was authorized in 788AD). - So what? What is that supposed to imply?

14. (Holy Water... ) - I honestly cannot imagine what are you driving at? Most Catholic Churches in Spain do not use Holy Water any more... So what?

15. (The veneration of St. Joseph began in 890AD... ) - Awe-inspiring problem! Can’t see how we have survived with that event upon our consciences..

16. (The baptism of bells... ) - Had I known it before I should have given up being a Catholic and would have become a Budhist. They only touch them with their hands...

17. (Canonization of dead saints... ) - (Rom, 1:7) says. 7To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ” Are you sure you understand the meaning? Called to be saints does not mean ALL of us. I, for one, am a Catholic, and I’m far from being a saint, unfortunately...

18. (Fasting on Fridays and during Lent were imposed in the year 998AD) - Fasting for religious and spiritual reasons has been a part of human custom since pre-history. It is mentioned in the Bible, in both the Old Testament (the Tanach) and New Testament, the Qur'an, the Mahabharata, and the Upanishads. Fasting is also practiced in many other religious traditions and spiritual practices. In fact, Jesus himself fasted 40 days in the desert, and this is what we commemorate in our Lent.

19. (The Mass was developed gradually as a sacrifice... ) - I’m not going to argue over this point... I think you should read again the chapters you point out.

20. (The celibacy of the priesthood... ) - That is right.. Clerical celibacy is practiced mainly by Roman Catholic priests and Eastern and Oriental Orthodox bishops and Eastern Catholic bishops. However, neither the Catholic nor the Orthodox tradition consider the rule of clerical celibacy to be a dogma, but instead as a rule that could be adjusted if thought appropriate.

21. (The Rosary... ) - To tell you the truth, I have the feeling you have just copied the whole list you exposed in your post from some Internet web, and you have not red the citations you mention. (Matt 6:5-13) “ 5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.. ”
The Rosary has nothing to do whatsoever with what those this message was addressed to, were doing...

22. (The Inquisition... ) - What you say is absolutely true. Even so, the most extraordinary and glorious thing about Catholicism is perhaps that DESPITE the many failings and misdeeds made by catholic Popes, bishops and priests along its history and the many transgressions of God’s Law, we constantly make, Jesus’ message continues to be the same (it could not be otherwise) and the number of Catholics keeps on growing all over the world.

23. (The sale of Indulgence... ) - Again you are right! One of the transgressions I mention before. Actually, this is what induce Luther to start his reform.

24. (The dogma of Transubstantiation... ) - As you say, this a dogma, and as such I’m not going to debate it. If you do not believe it, it is fine with me. I cannot prove it is true any more than you cannot prove it is false...

25. (Confession of sins... ) – Wrong. John 20:23 says: "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

27. (The Bible forbidden to laymen... ) - another faux pas of that Pope... You are not pretending that now we cannot read the Bible, are you? What really matters is not to make mistakes (we all do) but to be able to correct them... Henry VIII killed Thomas More and split with the Catholic Pope Clement VII because he refused to authorize his divorce from queen Catalina of Aragon to marry Anne Bolena. Subsequently, he founded the Church of England, of which he proclaimed himself the head... I would consider that also a faux pas... and yet...

28. (The Scapular... ) - These sort of practices were common many years ago... Not any more...

29. (The Roman Church forbade the cup... ) - Again this is history... At present, it is possible to have the Holy Communion both with the bread and the wine. You only have to ask it.

30. (The doctrine of Purgatory was proclaimed as a dogma... ) - Yes, but the blood of Christ cleans ONLY the sinners who truly repent of their sins. The purgatory is supposed to exist ONLY for those who are not clean enough to enter the Kingdom.

31. (The doctrine of 7 Sacraments... ) - Again, I think you should read more carefully your own citations.

32. (The Ave Maria.. ) - And what is wrong with it? Just another beautiful prayer that we like to say after the Lord’s Prayer... but, of course, if you think the Virgin was just another woman, what can I say?
33. (The Council of Trent... ) - That was in the XVI century, perhaps now they would have agreed on something else...

34. (The apocryphal books... ) - The Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah either...
35. (The Creed of Pope Pius IV... ) - Gal. 1:8 says "But, even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! “ That I know the Tridentine Creed does not say anything regarding the Gospels... It goes without saying that St. Paul was referring to other Gospels than those from the 4 evangelists.

36. (The Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary... ) - No point in discussing this point either; if you don’t believe it, and obviously, you don’t... Your privilege. As far as we are concerned it is a matter of faith. While we cannot prove it you, nor anybody else, can prove the contrary either. But, even assuming she was not born without the original sin may I ask you what would be the difference?

37. (In the year 1870 after Christ, Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of Papal Infallibility... ) - Only when he is Ex-Catedra... Those Bible students you mention have a great imagination... Once again, I think you do not read your Bible carefully enough...

38. (Pope Pius X, in the year 1907... ) - And 1616 Pope Paul V condemned Galileo Gallilei to ostracism... So what? I have said Popes are human beings, haven’t I? Do you know any religious head who is perfect?

39.( In the year 1930 Pius XI... ) - See the above!

40. Read your Bible, please. Still, no point in discussing this.

41. (In the year 1950... ) - Same as above...

42. [(Revelation 17:9) The Roman Catholic Church is the Woman of seven hills... ] – If you do not mind my saying so, I believe that you most certainly DO NOT understand the implications of St. John’s text, and I’m not going to explain them to you for lack of space and time, and also because I am not talented enough to enter the intricacies of the Book of Revelation.

Let me just add, hoever, that whatever denomination you may belong to, the important and basic point is that you must also believe in Jesus Christ and in his Message, the same as we do.

When I lived in the States (in Queens, NY) in the same street where I lived there were 3 Christian Churches of different denominations just because they had a few peculiarities that differentiate them.

I think you should consider us as having some peculiarities which are not, after all, so important insofar we ALL believe in the same basic principle. In One GOD who created everything and in Jesus Christ, GOD incarnated, who died in the Cross to redeem mankind from its sins... :p:p

[galveston]

Let me sum up a response to several posts at one time.

I agree with Wondergirl in her appraisal of what Mary went through to deliver Jesus. Catholic tradition on that point certainly wasn't formulated by any MOTHER!

I am not Nestorian. I do believe that Jesus is very God and Perfect man. I am sure none of you will argue that Mary birthed I AM. What she birthed was the human body that I AM lived in and ministered through while He walked on Earth. Since she did NOT birth I AM, then it is convoluted reasoning to call her the Mother of God.

You are strong on Tradition and quote Popes and others about various subjects. I see that you draw from meetings held in Alexandria. The church used writings from Antioch, as they found the writings from Alexandria to be corrupted.
A mere 60 years after the ascention of Jesus, the church had become corrupted. This can be seen from the writings of Apostle Paul and from the letters to the churches that Jesus dictated to John while he was on Patmos.

As to the Immaculate Conception, if the Apostles believed it, why did NONE of them write about it? (Such things are why Voltaire made his infamous statement)

What makes you believe that the Holy Spirit does not teach me the truth revealed in the Bible? If I warn you that your ship has a leak, don't you think you should at least check for water in the hold?

NOW, lets examine the claim of the bodily assumption of Mary. Give me your best Scriptures.

[gromitt82]

Let me sum up a response to several posts at one time.


NOW, lets examine the claim of the bodily assumption of Mary. Give me your best Scriptures.

As far as we Catholics are concerned the bodily Assumption of the Virgin Mary is a dogma defined by Pius XII, in 1950.

Therefore, those who are not Catholic can either believe it or not, as they please; by the same token, I question their right to decide what we can or should believe...

Still, from a history point of view we can find references late 3rd century in the “Liber Requiei Mariae and in some writing of St. Meliton, bishop of Sardis, in Asia Minor (2nd century AD). St. John of Damascus (8th century AD) also mentions that during the Council of Chalcedon, in 451, emperor Marcian claimed that when the apostles went to Mary’s tomb, they found it empty!

Some of the Church Fathers believed that the Virgin Mary was assumed while still alive, others that she was assumed after she had died. Both views are permitted under the infallible definition of Pius XII.

Come what may, accounts of the Assumption of Mary into Heaven have been circulating since the 5th century.

Also, some catholic theologians use the symbology of the Book of Revelation, chapter 12, The Woman and the Dragon, as referring to this mystery.

Another apocrypha texts going back to the 4th century is the “Six Books” Dormition Narrative, as well as the “De Obitu S. Dominae”, attributed to St. John .

Some other saints like St. Gregory of Tours, St. Modestus of Jerusalem and St. John Damascene, also mention this event.

Still, the Assumption of Mary into Heaven became an established belief across the Eastern, Western, Coptic and Oriental churches from at least the late 7th Century.

However, as in the 1st century there were neither video-cameras nor mobile telephones with incorporated cameras that would have allowed the apostles to film what was going on in those days, we may, as well accept Mary’s Assumption as a fact.

If we truly believe that Mary was chosen by God to give birth to His Son, because of her freedom from original sin, we may as well believe that She may have rewarded by God with her Assumption to Heaven, can’t we?

What I find really funny is that stubbornness to deny this possibility when it is clear –at least it is to me- that true or false it hurts nobody. One thing is sure, though! So far, nobody has been able to find neither the Virgin Mary’s tomb nor her remains...
I would say it is far more difficult to belief in Jesus Christ’s resurrection and yet we all believe in that, so why should not we believe in Mary’s Assumption?
:):)

[galveston]

The 12th chapter of Revelation is sometimes used to prove the assumption (ascension) of Mary into Heaven.

The truth is that the woman in chapter 12 of Revelation is national Israel. Please keep in mind that this vision of ch 12 was totally symbolic. She cannot be Mary, as shown below.

Rev 4:1
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
(KJV)
The woman is seen giving birth. It has been about 90 years since Jesus was born, and the verse above plainly says that those things John will see are to be hereafter or future. This woman is not seen until the middle of the Great Tribulation.

Rev 12:1-6
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

This is a symbolic picture of national Israel after her acceptance of Jesus as Messiah. That will happen at the mid point of the Great Tribulation. Note that while the vision was seen in heaven, the woman is actually on Earth, as shown in vs 6 and vs 14.
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

This shows part of the spiritual war that started when Satan rebelled against God and shows how many angels follow him.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

This is not Jesus. Jesus went back to Heaven as a resurrected adult about 57 years earlier. Note that overcomers are promised that they will reign with Jesus as kings. This man child represents the 144,000 young people (virgins) selected from the 12 tribes of Israel.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
(KJV)

The woman will remain on earth for 3 ½ more years, until the personal return of Jesus Christ.

Rev 12:13-17
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Many Bible scholars think Israel will take shelter in the ancient city of Petra.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

From this we know that not all Israelites will get to the wilderness refuge, but will face the rage of Satan.

[gromitt82]

The 12th chapter of Revelation is sometimes used to prove the assumption (ascension) of Mary into Heaven.

The truth is that the woman in chapter 12 of Revelation is national Israel. Please keep in mind that this vision of ch 12 was totally symbolic. She cannot be Mary, as shown below.

Rev 4:1
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
(KJV)
The woman is seen giving birth. It has been about 90 years since Jesus was born, and the verse above plainly says that those things John will see are to be hereafter or future. This woman is not seen until the middle of the Great Tribulation.

Rev 12:1-6
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

This is a symbolic picture of national Israel after her acceptance of Jesus as Messiah. That will happen at the mid point of the Great Tribulation. Note that while the vision was seen in heaven, the woman is actually on Earth, as shown in vs 6 and vs 14.
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

This shows part of the spiritual war that started when Satan rebelled against God and shows how many angels follow him.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

This is not Jesus. Jesus went back to Heaven as a resurrected adult about 57 years earlier. Note that overcomers are promised that they will reign with Jesus as kings. This man child represents the 144,000 young people (virgins) selected from the 12 tribes of Israel.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
(KJV)

The woman will remain on earth for 3 ½ more years, until the personal return of Jesus Christ.

Rev 12:13-17
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Many Bible scholars think Israel will take shelter in the ancient city of Petra.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

From this we know that not all Israelites will get to the wilderness refuge, but will face the rage of Satan.

In fact, I rather agree to your statement. You will notice, however, I say that "some theologians" connect this chapter 12 od the Book of Revelation with the Virgin Mary. Not all of them.:):)