[arcura]

Wondergirl,
You asked about requesting a relative who had passed away to pray for you.
That is why I mentioned it.
Yes you can pray for yourself, but not as well as a more righteous person at the thone of God can pray for you.
Obviously the more people who pray for you the better as Jesus tells us in the parable of the magistrate.
The more God is prayed to about you the more effective those prayers will be.
Another example is in the bible that tells ALL of Jesus' followers to pray for each other.
I often pray for all here and all Christians. I'm sure that there are many people who do that for have seen and heard them doing so..
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Wondergirl]

Yes you can pray for yourself, but not as well as a more righteous person at the thone of God can pray for you.

What will I get when people in heaven pray for me?

Obviously the more people who pray for you the better as Jesus tells us in the parable of the magistrate. The more God is prayed to about you the more effective those prayers will be.

Again, why? What will I get?

[arcura]

Wodergirl,
You would get more attention to you with many other people praying for you.
You, being a Christian are a earthly saint.
I am a diabetic with all of the problems that go alone with that plus a lot of back pain.
So I ask others to pray for me for God to sustain, help and heal me.
So I ask you to pray for me. Will you please do so?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Wodergirl,
You would get more attention to you with many other people praying for you.

Exactly whose influence would exceed that of Jesus?

John 16:26-28
26 In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I shall pray the Father for you; 27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God.
NKJV

And, if the prayers of another saint help, why would you not simply ask earthly saints to pray for you rather than violating the Biblical prohibition against speaking to the dead?

[arcura]

Tj3,
See the parable of the magistrate for that.
Jesus gives the answer there.
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3,
See the parable of the magistrate for that.
Jesus gives the answer there.
Fred

Fred,

I don't see how you interpret that to say that anyone has more influence than Jesus. Please explain.

[arcura]

Tj3,
Please do not assume or that I said that anyone has more influence than Jesus or twist what I say.The subject on this is that many others have influence than just one or that many prayers are more effective than just one.
NO ONE has more influence with the Father than does His Son and I'm sure that you KNEW that I believed that.
So why do you ask such things?
By the way I want to thank you for your efforts on Biblical evidence of the Trinity and I want to ask you if I can use the information you provided in your words the next time I hold a boble class on that subject.
I will give credit where credit is due on your job well done.
Fred

[Akoue]

Why would he or she pray for me?

Why is that important? I can communicate with God just fine on my own.

Yes, we can, each of us, communicate just fine with God on our own. And yet Scripture repeatedly encourages us to pray for each other, to seek the intercession of others (1Tim.2, which I quoted above, is explicit about that). So why? Why ask others to pray for us if we can petition God all on our own? Why does Scripture tell us to do so? Or perhaps more to the point, why do you seem to be puzzled about it?

[Akoue]

Let's deal with you last comment first - this makes no distinction between saved and unsaved - that you got right. There is no distinction anywhere in scripture with respect to speaking with the dead as to whether they are saved and unsaved, and thus taking that passage in the NT about God being God of the living (which was taken entirely out of context) has no bearing on this question whatsoever.

Lk.20.38 sure looks relevant to me. Take a look at v.36: "Indeed they cannot die anymore, because they are like angels and are children of God, being children of the resurrection." Christ is preaching eternal life and the resurrection of the flesh to the scribes. If you think it has no bearing you're going to have to make a case for that, since it looks on point to me. The NT does make a distinction between saved and unsaved and the OT does not. That's why Lk.20 is relevant and Dt.18 isn't.

Necromancy comes from two words, the first meaning "dead tissue", in other words speaking of the dead in the flesh, and mancer referring to divination, a term used to call up the dead or other being from the spirit world. Thus it is referring to conjuring up those who are dead in the flesh. Translators agree.

The English word "necrotic" does refer to dead tissue, as you say. The Greek word "nekros" means dead. The Greek word "nekroo" means to make dead. But, in any case, asking the saints to pray for us isn't divination: It's asking the saints to pray for us. This is worlds away from fortune-telling (which is what necromancers did)--as I'm sure you know.

We have one example in scripture where someone tried speaking to the dead and God condemned the act.

Christ spoke to Lazarus when he raised him. Was Christ guilty of violating the Law at the Transfiguration when he was joined by Moses and Elijah? Nah, didn't think so.

As for (a), yes they are by the definition of the term; and (b) it is interesting that you simply and completely toss out not just Mosaic law but the intent of the law. Do you also believe that lying, cheating, adultery are okay because they are part of Mosaic law? I hope not. The fact is that though Christians are not bound by the law, the law represents God's standard for us. Jesus was clear that he was not getting rid of the law:

Matt 5:17-20
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
NKJV

So, to say that because Christians are no longer under the law, that we can therefore be law-less is not scriptural.

Hmm. So you don't shave your beard or trim your fore-locks? I've seen you claim many times that we are no longer bound by the Law.

The Law has been fulfilled by Christ, a point made repeatedly both by Paul and... ehem... by you, on these very boards.

But, in any case, those who fell asleep in the Lord aren't dead. They are more alive than we, since they have entered the Kingdom. If you wish to deny that Christ has conquered death, feel free. I'll stick with God's word.

(That last phrase sounds familiar. Wonder where I've heard it?)

[Akoue]

So when someone is petitioning the judge in the courtroom and using the word "pray" to mean "petition", it does not mean the same thing as praying to the dead.

It sure does. Those who pray to saints are asking them to pray for them. The same way you might ask a friend or family member to pray for you. Catholics don't pray to the dead because they don't believe the saints to be dead: They have eternal life with their Heavenly Father. Christ conquered death.

Show us anyplace where praying to the dead is encouraged by scripture.

Catholics don't pray to the dead. They pray to those who have eternal life with the Father. Why do you insist on denying that God keeps his promises?

[Akoue]

What will I get when people in heaven pray for me?

Again, why? What will I get?

What do you "get" when people on earth pray for you?

Do you imagine that God refuses to hear the prayers of those whom he has called home to him? Do you believe that their worship is less meaningful than ours here on earth? (If anything, I'd bet that they pray even better than we do, though that's just a hunch.)

[Tj3]

Tj3,
Please do not assume or that I said that anyone has more influence than Jesus or twist what I say.

You said that the more people that we have praying rather than just Jesus as opur mediator with the Father would be more effective. I asked who would have more influence than Jesus and then you referenced that parable for the answer.

If that is not what you meant, then you should have clarified.

NO ONE has more influence with the Father than does His Son and I'm sure that you KNEW that I believed that.

Then no one in heaven will influence God the father more than Jesus, so why violate the prohibition against communication with the dead?

By the way I want to thank you for your efforts on Biblical evidence of the Trinity and I want to ask you if I can use the information you provided in your words the next time I hold a boble class on that subject.

Yes, certainly you can.

[Tj3]

Lk.20.38 sure looks relevant to me. Take a look at v.36: "Indeed they cannot die anymore, because they are like angels and are children of God, being children of the resurrection." Christ is preaching eternal life and the resurrection of the flesh to the scribes. If you think it has no bearing you're going to have to make a case for that, since it looks on point to me. The NT does make a distinction between saved and unsaved and the OT does not. That's why Lk.20 is relevant and Dt.18 isn't.

Show me where in that passage that it says that the unsaved are dead and the saved are alive.

If you say that the unsaved are dead, then it sounds like you are promoting annihilationism.

The English word "necrotic" does refer to dead tissue, as you say. The Greek word "nekros" means dead. The Greek word "nekroo" means to make dead.

So the word does make reference to dead in the flesh, thus that is what is referenced here. We are making progress.

But, in any case, asking the saints to pray for us isn't divination: It's asking the saints to pray for us. This is worlds away from fortune-telling (which is what necromancers did)--as I'm sure you know.

As you pointed out, it can also mean to summon, and you most certainly are hoping for them to hear you if you are praying to them, so you are indeed summoning them.

Christ spoke to Lazarus when he raised him.

Right - He raised Him from the dead and spoke to Him. The problem is?

Was Christ guilty of violating the Law at the Transfiguration when he was joined by Moses and Elijah? Nah, didn't think so.

You mean when He was in His glorified state as God?

Hmm. So you don't shave your beard or trim your fore-locks? I've seen you claim many times that we are no longer bound by the Law.

We are no longer under the law, meaning the letter of the law, but that does not mean that we are to be or can be law-less. We are not to follow the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law which is written on our hearts, so that we do not follow the letter but the spirit:

Jer 31:33-34
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
NKJV

Now, how do you turn this around to say that you can completely toss out the prohibition against communication with the dead, or the 10 commandments, and live whatever way you wish?

[Tj3]

It sure does. Those who pray to saints are asking them to pray for them.

Get thee to a dictionary!

When you petition a higher authority such as a judge, you do not pray to them. It is a much different situation. And never had any such situation exist where the judge in the courtroom or the city council was dead.

The same way you might ask a friend or family member to pray for you. Catholics don't pray to the dead because they don't believe the saints to be dead: They have eternal life with their Heavenly Father. Christ conquered death.

You have already conceded that Deut 18 in context speaks of those who are dead in flesh.

[Akoue]

Show me where in that passage that it says that the unsaved are dead and the saved are alive.

If you say that the unsaved are dead, then it sounds like you are promoting annihilationism.

I've never said that sinners are annihilated, as opposed to being sent to hell. In fact, I've never come within a country mile of even addressing that subject. Are you confused about what annihilationism is?

The unsaved go to hell. The saved go to heaven, i.e. eternal life with God.

So the word does make reference to dead in the flesh, thus that is what is referenced here. We are making progress.



As you pointed out, it can also mean to summon, and you most certainly are hoping for them to hear you if you are praying to them, so you are indeed summoning them.

What I've said about Dt.18.11 is that the prohibition against summoning the dead offered there is a prohibition against necromancy (occurring as it does alongside prohibitions against other sorts of occult practices). And, since asking the saints to offer intercessory prayers isn't necromancy, it doesn't speak to the present topic. Moreover, since the saints aren't dead but are living eternal life with their Creator, addressing them wouldn't count as communicating with the dead in any case.

Right - He raised Him from the dead and spoke to Him. The problem is?

He raised him from the dead by speaking to him. No problem for me.

You mean when He was in His glorified state as God?

I mean at the Transfiguration, when he was hanging out with a couple of dead guys--who clearly were still capable of communicating with the living since Christ hadn't been crucified yet.

We are no longer under the law, meaning the letter of the law, but that does not mean that we are to be or can be law-less. We are not to follow the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law which is written on our hearts, so that we do not follow the letter but the spirit:

Jer 31:33-34
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
NKJV

Now, how do you turn this around to say that you can completely toss out the prohibition against communication with the dead, or the 10 commandments, and live whatever way you wish?

So I am to infer that your beard and fore-locks must be really, really long? You keep kashrut as well? Too bad. Bacon is yummy.

I have no problem with the OT prohibition against the occult. I just think it's obvious to anyone with a functioning brain-stem that asking the saints for intercessory prayers comes nowhere close to trafficking in the occult.

[Akoue]

Get thee to a dictionary!

Pray tell, why?

See what I did? I just "prayed" to you... by, you know, asking you something.

When you petition a higher authority such as a judge, you do not pray to them. It is a much different situation. And never had any such situation exist where the judge in the courtroom or the city council was dead.

It's a pity to see how little faith you have in God's promises.

You have already conceded that Deut 18 in context speaks of those who are dead in flesh.

I have "conceded" that Dt.18 is off-topic.

[Tj3]

I've never said that sinners are annihilated, as opposed to being sent to hell. In fact, I've never come within a country mile of even addressing that subject. Are you confused about what annihilationism is?

Well then explain your position - that is what appears confused. If you say that God is the God of the living, and thus you use that to say that it is okay to ignore the Biblical prohibition against speaking to the dead, then what are you saying:

1) Are you saying that the unsaved are annihilated?
2) Are you saying that God is not God of the unsaved?
3) Are you saying that we can speak to the dead who are unsaved?

What I've said about Dt.18.11 is that the prohibition against summoning the dead offered there is a prohibition against necromancy (occurring as it does alongside prohibitions against other sorts of occult practices).

Right, which we already agreed speak to those dead in the flesh.

I mean at the Transfiguration, when he was hanging out with a couple of dead guys--who clearly were still capable of communicating with the living since Christ hadn't been crucified yet.

Are you confused about what "transfigured" means?

I have no problem with the OT prohibition against the occult. I just think it's obvious to anyone with a functioning brain-stem that asking the saints for intercessory prayers comes nowhere close to trafficking in the occult.

Ah, so edging into the abuse / ad hominems again.

[Tj3]

Pray tell, why?

See what I did? I just "prayed" to you... by, you know, asking you something.

Because you seem to have your own version of the English m,anguage which disagrees with accepted version. Must be the "akoue dialect".

It's a pity to see how little faith you have in God's promises.

How come every time you are hit with hard questions, you need to get into personal abusive comments.

I have "conceded" that Dt.18 is off-topic.

An avoidance approach I see.

[Wondergirl]

What do you "get" when people on earth pray for you?

Do you imagine that God refuses to hear the prayers of those whom he has called home to him? Do you believe that their worship is less meaningful than ours here on earth? (If anything, I'd bet that they pray even better than we do, though that's just a hunch.)

It just seems that my beloved father in heaven has far more interesting and important things to do in heaven than to look "down" to earth to check up on WG and any prayers she has offered to him (who then brings them to the Lord's attention). I've always thought of earth and heaven as two very separate realms, with heavenly (formerly earthly) residents' personal knowledge of our earthly comings and goings as totally apart from their existence, just as we have no personal knowledge of what's going on with heavenly beings.

I guess I think that because here on earth we are caught in Time. Everything is linear. Everything has a beginning, middle, and end. In heaven there is no Time as we know it. It is always Now. I have gotten glimpses of that because of my cats who do not regret ripping up that upholstery yesterday nor do they fret and worry that I will run out of Fancy Feast and perhaps feed them some dreaded Nine Lives tomorrow. My cats live in the Now.

I believe that the joys of heaven and living always in the Now preclude worrying or thinking about the still earth-bound. It's a nice idea to think my father is concerned about me, but it comforts me so much more to know that he is doing "his Father's business" in a place where he always longed to go. People have told my mother, "Your husband is in heaven and is keeping an eye out for you," and she responds with, "I'm sure God has put him to work doing more important things than that. I'm guessing he's very busy being everything he was here on earth and more."

Am I against intercessory prayer here on earth? No, not at all. I daily pray for friends and relatives and as special requests, and am glad to know that others pray for me. I believe I have a rich prayer life with an almost continuous conversation with God. After all, prayer is practicing the presence of God, i.e. prayer not only is a quiet, sedentary, and mindful (and centering) occupation with folded hands and closed eyes but also has an active and dynamic quality in a life of service to others.

[Akoue]

Well then explain your position - that is what appears confused. if you say that God is the God of the living, and thus you use that to say that it is okay to ignore the Biblical prohibition against speaking to the dead, then what are you saying:

1) Are you saying that the unsaved are annihilated?
2) Are you saying that God is not God of the unsaved?
3) Are you saying that we can speak to the dead who are unsaved?

Non, nein, nope.

I don't think I could have made my position any more clear. Here it is in numbered propositions:

1. Scripture encourages intercessory prayer.
2. The saints enjoy the eternal life that was promised them and are alive with the Father.
3. The saints in heaven pray and worship.
4. We can ask the saints to offer intercessory prayers because they are alive with the Father.
5. There is nothing illicit about 4.

I am now thoroughly bored from repeating myself so I'll let you have the last word.