[tomder55]

Obama says that education, health care and energy are both the cause and cure to the economic crisis.

Yes it floors you to contemplate he really believes that. What has he done to address the credit freeze which is the real cause of this ? If there is any government intervention needed at all, beyond the temporary extending the safety net perhaps ,it is in getting capital moving again .

Krauthammer put it this way :

Health, education and energy — worthy and weighty as they may be — are not the cause of our financial collapse. And they are not the cure. The fraudulent claim that they are both cause and cure is the rhetorical device by which an ambitious president intends to enact the most radical agenda of social transformation seen in our lifetime.
washingtonpost.com

I am getting an indication from the news that the Aussies are beginning to recognize that the emperor's cloths are thin.
While President Barack Obama and the Democratic-controlled Congress have muscled through $US787bn ($1.2trillion) in stimulus spending to try to fire up the jobs market in the US, sources in the Rudd Government have flagged concerns that the underlying cause of the US economic meltdown - the unprecedented credit freeze - is not being addressed.
World worries as Obama team struggle | World News | News.com.au

How is it that they see it and we don't ? Perhaps because Aussies got to see boy wonder Tim Geithner up close and personal when he was a hack at the IMF .

At least former Labor Party leader and Aussie PM Paul Keating does not have fond recollections of Tim Geithner .
“Tim Geithner was the Treasury line officer who wrote the IMF [International Monetary Fund] program for Indonesia in 1997-98, which was to apply current account solutions to a capital account crisis. … It takes a gigantic fool to mess that up. But the IMF messed it up. The end result was the biggest fall in GDP in the 20th century. That dubious distinction went to Indonesia. And, of course, Soeharto lost power. … The IMF is the gun that can't shoot straight. They've been making a mess of things for the last 20-odd years, and the greatest mess they made was in east Asia in 1997-98, so much so that no east Asian state will put its head in the IMF noose. …”
Obama's economic saviour savaged as Keating lets rip | smh.com.au

Geithner's income tax problems proved that he is either inattentive to detail ,willing to show contempt to the system ,or is just plain too stupid for the job he has. Throw in this apparent bungling of the Inonesian economy and the only conclusion is the guy is a walking Katrina waiting to happen.

[excon]

Have you noticed that every time Obama or a member of his administration say something or take some sort of action, the market tanks? Going backward in time, here are some examples.

Hello again, El:

What I noticed, is that the DOW is NOT a poll, nor is it a measurement by which Obama's progress can be plotted.

If you want to know what the American people THINK about Obama and his plans, you need look no further than the latest NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll.

It finds, that despite the country's struggling economy and vocal opposition to some of his policies, President Obama's favorability rating is at an all-time high. Two-thirds feel hopeful about his leadership and six in 10 approve of the job he's doing in the White House.

By comparison, the Republican Party, which resisted Obama's recently passed stimulus plan and has criticized the spending in his budget, finds its favorability at an all-time low. It also receives most of the blame for the current partisanship in Washington and trails the Democrats by nearly 30 percentage points on the question of which party could best lead the nation out of recession.

THESE are the things I notice.

excon

[inthebox]

Just to play devils advocate [ no pun intended ]:

DJIA 14164 October 7, 2007
DJIA 9139 November 5, 2008

A 35.5% / 5025 drop in little over a year


DJIA 7949 January 20, 2009
A 43.9% / 6215 drop in the last 15 months of Bush's administration.


From 7949 to 6627 in less than 2 months
A 16.6% / 1319 drop

Or if you want

A 27.5% / 2512 from the time Obama was elected.


I think Reagan's numbers were not so hot his first 2 months either.












G&P

[inthebox]

Actually they were better

^DJI: Historical Prices for Dow Jones Industrial Average - Yahoo! Finance


DJIA January 20, 1981 was 951 and 976 on March 6, 1981. A 2.6% / 25 point increase.

DJIA was 953 on Nov 5, 1980



------------------------------------------------


Here is another perspective

Comprehensive Wealth Management

While a brief recession did occur in 1980, historians commonly attribute the 1981-82 recession to the "tight money" policy adopted by the Federal Reserve. During the late 1970s, the U.S. was experiencing double-digit inflation. Fed chairman Paul Volcker spearheaded a policy decision to slow the growth rate of the money supply to combat inflationary pressures. The Fed set interest rates higher and higher –by December 1980, the prime rate had hit its all-time high, 21.5%. Volcker's radical stance was painful for the banking sector, the real estate sector, and the overall economy.5 But there would be a spectacular upside.

Note how Obama is taking a situation that is good, relative to the double digit inflation and interest rates that Reagan inherited, and is doing the opposite.

Pessimism
Loosening money policy


In this regard OBAMA IS NO CHANGE FROM BUSH [ Bush's last 2 years economicallly ].















G&P

[tomder55]

An even more interesting example was Black Monday 1987. That day the market lost 25% of it's value in a single day becoming the single biggest drop in US history.

When pressed to act ,Reagan did nothing . He repied "This is purely a stock market thing".

The NY Slimes went ballistic.
"When he was cutting taxes, boosting the military budget, firing the air controllers, proclaiming Government as the nation's basic problem, he seemed to know just where he was going and how to get there. Nearly two terms and many traumas later, Mr. Reagan prescribes no new direction, just more of the same - which, many Americans seem to fear, is what brought us to Black Monday in the first place."...

"President Reagan must do more, not least because the Presidency carries special responsibility in times of national nervousness. No modern leader understood this better and dealt more effectively with crises of public confidence than Mr. Reagan's professed political hero, Franklin D. Roosevelt. Instead of continuing the silence and inaction that has characterized Mr. Reagan since the onset of the financial crisis, he should borrow a leaf from his mentor."...

"The noise you heard was not just the crash of the market. It was the crumbling of public support for Ronald Reagan. The age of Reagan is over."

But the market did rebound to it's former level about a year later ,and went on a virtual boom for the next 20 years. (a 500% increase... did anyone really think it wouldn't adjust ? )

I think the market would calm down if they saw a little less panic in the White House.

[ETWolverine]

Hello Elliot:

Not to anybody who looks at the bigger picture..

The DOW has been plunging since late 2007 when the Bush depression started. It's simply continuing its decline.

Uh... I hate to disabuse you of your assumptions, but I am looking at the DJIA data for every single day since 1928. And that the market opened on Jan 1, 2007 at 12,459.54, hit a high of 14,198.83 in the middle of the day on 10/9/07, and closed at 13,264.82 on Dec 31, 2007. The market was most certainly NOT in a decline at any point during 2007. The market stayed roughly flat in the 12-13,000 range until June 2008, which is when we started hearing about the housing bust and banks failing. The market has been in a decline since about 6/13/08.

There was no "Bush Depression" in 2007, or in the first half of 2008. In fact, the market was at its highest levels during the latter part of 2008.

So right off the bat, your data is just incorrect.

Then there's the fact that since Obama took office the decline has not merely continued. It has increased significantly in rate of decline. By a factor of 3:1 or so.

Did President Obama say it's going to get worse before it gets better? He did, didn't he? Is it getting worse? It is, isn't it? Is the two week old stim making a difference yet?? You got to be kidding.

Excon

Interesting... do you apply the same standards to Democrat Presidents that you apply to Republican ones? Seems to me that Bush said that things in Iraq would get worse before they got better too. And nobody was accepting that, not were they willing to give his policies a chance to work. Remember all the anti-surge talk? Why is Obama being given a "chance for his policies to work" when Bush wasn't?

The difference is that Bush was right about his actions in Iraq, and Obama is dead wrong on the economy.

During the campaign, The Messiah promissed that things would be better under his leadership... something about seas not rising, healing the sick and infirm, yada yada yada... Now he's backing off from that and saying "Not so fast, there. We're not quite as good as we said we were." I know that people though that he'd be paying their mortgages, paying for the gas in their cars, etc. But hey, we're expecting too much from Obama when we expect that passing an economic stimulus plan actually keeps the stock market from going down even more.

Excon, Obama made promisses. He suckered 52% of voters into believing that he would solve the economic problems of the country. So far, in 56 days in office, he's quadrupled the national budget deficit, tripled the national debt, and spent hundreds of billions of dollars on pork. Do you remember him promissing to do any of those things? I sure don't.

Yes, he said that things would get worse before they get better. But he never said that he was going to be the cause of it getting worse.

Obama promissed change. Well, that's all I have left in my 401K now... change. So, yeah... I guess he's keeping his promisses.

Elliot

[excon]

So far, in 56 days in office, he's quadrupled the national budget deficit, tripled the national debt, and spent hundreds of billions of dollars on pork.

Hello again, El:

It takes a few eggs to make an omelette.

You weren't around when I lambasted your co-horts... But, I saved one for you...

Uhhh, I don't remember you whining when the dufus was spending us into bankruptcy. I DO remember one thing you said, "don't listen to what he says, watch what he does".

Well, I did, and he bankrupted us. He stood by while his friends "the halves", looted the country, and left Obama with the mess to clean up.

I don't know if he's going to do it or not. But, if we're bankrupt, it's the dufus who did it to us, and NOBODY could have saved us.

So, your arguments, my fine banker friend, don't have a lot of credibility at this juncture.

excon

[ETWolverine]

Hello again, El:

It takes a few eggs to make an omelette.

This isn't breaking a few eggs. This is drowning the chickens so that they can't produce any new eggs.

You weren't around when I lambasted your co-horts... But, I saved one for you...

Uhhh, I don't remember you whining when the dufus was spending us into bankruptcy. I DO remember one thing you said, "don't listen to what he says, watch what he does".

Well, I did, and he bankrupted us. He stood by while his friends "the halves", looted the country, and left Obama with the mess to clean up.

First off, you don't seem to remember the number of times that I disagreed with Bush's policies... and yes, I said watch what he does, not what he says. And when I disagreed with what he did, I said so. I seem to remember a number of times where I lamented that Bush couldn't seem to find his veto pen. I also talked about my disagreements with him over illegal immigration "reform".

On the other hand, Bush raised the issue of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac crashing back in 2001, then in 2003 and 2006. McCain brought it up in 2005 and 2006. They were both ignored. Therefore, the people who are responsible for the economic crisis are not Bush and McCain who actually tried to get people to wake up and take notice, but rather the fools who ignored them... and more so the fools who told everyone else to ignore them. Chris Dodd and Barney Frank come to mind, along with Chuck Schumer.

So yes, Bush allowed spending and even spent a huge amount of money himself. But he didn't cause the recession. Nor did he QUADRUPLE the national deficit in under 60 days. Blame him for what he deserves to be blamed. But place the blame for $1.3 of the current $1.7 trillion dollar deficit where it belongs... on Obama's shoulders.

Sorry, ex, but the mantra of "it's Bush's fault" is wearing thin. That only works for so long into the next guy's administration. And now it's all Obama baby.

Hope you like soup lines. You voted for the jerk, you have to live with him.

I don't know if he's going to do it or not. But, if we're bankrupt, it's the dufus who did it to us, and NOBODY could have saved us.

So, your arguments, my fine banker friend, don't have a lot of credibility at this juncture.

As I said, the problems begin with the housing crisis. Bush didn't cause it, he didn't condone it, and he tried to stop it. The people who are truly responsible are:

FDR, for creating Fannie in the first place,
LBJ, for credit Freddie,
Carter, for credit CRA,
Clinton, for increasing CRA and deregulating Fannie and Freddie
Dodd, Franks and Schumer, for ignoring the warnings and strongly encouranging others to do the same.

And I'm not interested in anybody "saving us". I just want the President to be someone who isn't going to make the problems WORSE through his incompetence and lack of experience. Which is clearly exactly what is happening now... and the stock market is a huge indicator of that fact. That, and the fact that nobody is spending, despite the promise of protections for spending that exist in the stimulus package. People clearly don't trust the stimulus package. And that is Obama's fault, and nobody else's.

Point, set and match.

Elliot

[speechlesstx]

But Obama is having an effect, he was magically able to make credit card delinquencies go down in the 4th quarter of last year before he was president.

Americans are managing their credit better as the recession deepens — possibly a sign that the new era of responsibility that President Barack Obama has been talking about is taking shape.

The number of people three months behind on bank card payments fell 11 percent in the fourth quarter of 2008 from a year ago. Consumers restrained spending during the holidays, adding less than 2 percent to their balances, according to consumer credit tracking agency TransUnion.

Gee, folks like us have been preaching such responsibility for years. The evil one under attack now, Rush Limbaugh, has preached it religiously for years. Obama, who titled his irresponsible budget "A New Era of Responsibility" gets the credit.

[NeedKarma]

The people who are truly responsible are:

FDR, for creating Fannie in the first place,
LBJ, for credit Freddie,
Carter, for credit CRA,
Clinton, for increasing CRA and deregulating Fannie and Freddie
Dodd, Franks and Schumer, for ignoring the warnings and strongly encouranging others to do the same.

Wow, not one mention of the actual borrowers buying an asset beyond their budget. So much for the concept of personal responsibility.

[speechlesstx]

Wow, not one mention of the actual borrowers buying an asset beyond their budget. So much for the concept of personal responsibility.

That's been covered here many times.

[NeedKarma]

That's been covered here many times.

Not at all in the post I quoted. I wasn't referring to millions of post on this board.

[speechlesstx]

Not at all in the post I quoted. I wasn't referring to millions of post on this board.

Enough conservatives have said it enough to have established that point already. Please, NK, don't ever forget to cover every possible base on every post you make.

[NeedKarma]

Are you the board monitor?

:D

[inthebox]

Well, I did, and he bankrupted us. He stood by while his friends "the halves", looted the country, and left Obama with the mess to clean up.

I dunno if he's gonna do it or not. But, if we're bankrupt, it's the dufus who did it to us, and NOBODY could have saved us.



excon

So Bush was friends with those that were responsible for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
I bet Bush was friends with all the banks that made subprime mortagages. Oh, and he was friends with the subprime borrowers also. He must have been friends with Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, and the entire SEC as well as present during the CRA act. You know I bet that Bush was friends with Obama's friends in ACORN also. :D:eek::p











G&P

[N0help4u]

From what I understand it was Clinton that passed bills that lead to all this
Not Bush.

[speechlesstx]

Are you the board monitor?

:D

No, the Enforcer :D

[excon]

So Bush was friends with those that were responsible for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.....I bet Bush was friends with all the banks that made subprime mortagages.

Hello again, in:

Nope. At the risk of redundancy, the people who RIPPED us off, were the Wall Street bankers who sold the mortgages. It was THAT money that fueled the pump. Those are the "haves" I'm talking about. They're the ones who made JILLIONS upon JILLIONS.

If this country is close to being bankrupt, and it is, who do you think has all the money that we once had anyway? Barney Frank?

I know you keep talking about Fannie Mae. But, they're pikers compared to Wall Street. I think its because you don't want to know.

excon

[450donn]

Koolaid sipper,
You still don't understand do you. It was the dems that allowed all this to happen by their rules that forced all this on the banking industry in the first place!

[excon]

You still don't understand do you. It was the dems that allowed all this to happen by their rules that forced all this on the banking industry in the first place!

Hello again, 450:

What YOU don't understand, is that without the worlds money that came from the greedy Wall Street bankers selling the trash to the world, the banking industry COULDN'T have loaned all that money no matter how much the dems wanted them to.

WITHOUT the money, the policy would NOT have bankrupted us..

excon