[JoeT777]

As you might recall the opening proposition was, “did Christ die to redeem Creation or just man?” I’d like to continue the discussion started by the original proposition as well a spin off proposal. Whether it was known to be profound, Asking pronounced that man can discern something of God’s nature.

Therefore, the second question under this topic might rightly be,

PART 2: Can we discern God’s nature and is that discernment dependent on whether or not Christ died to redeem all Creation or just man?


JoeT

[JoeT777]

The majority view of the first part of this proposition was that redemption was for all Creation. My view, the lone dissenting view, was that only man is redeemed. I argued that only man sinned, and that the rest Creation remains in harmony with its Creator and as such isn’t in need of redemption.

It’s my understanding that the majority view contends that those in the Church will be divinized as addressed by De Maria:

it is Jesus' mission to redeem all Creation. But man is different than the rest of known Creation. (Except for the Angels) We are the only ones who can worship God and thus know our Creator.

Furthermore that man “will be divinized, deified, because we will be sons in the Son, members of the body of Christ and are raised to a status higher than the angels because of our union with Christ.”

My contention with this argument was basically about form. Men have both body and soul. And as such when drawn to heaven, we would be whole beings; such beings can’t be incorporated into another. I can understand incorporation as an allegorical statement; but not in a literal physical sense.

But equally interesting, during that discussion Asking posed the question, In God’s Creation can (or can we not) discern something of the nature of God?

you should be able to infer something about Him from his Work.

I find this question most interesting. Being in the field of ‘applied’ science, I would respond emphatically in the positive. And I’d go on to say, that science is nothing more than the study of God as revealed through the various disciplines of science.

I’m interested in your thoughts on these topics.

JoeT

[Akoue]

Does it help at all that divinization or union with God involves the union of something bodily (us) with something immaterial (God)? I see what you're saying about the union of two physical substances. But isn't the problem ameliorated by the fact that God isn't physical?

I do actually intend to do better than just respond to your question with more questions, it's just that I don't think I'm feeling the full force of this particular reservation.

[Tj3]

Does it help at all that divinization or union with God involves the union of something bodily (us) with something immaterial (God)?

Scripture speaks against divinization. Perhaps you are mistaking the indwelling of the Holy Spirit with deification of man.

[JoeT777]

Does it help at all that divinization or union with God involves the union of something bodily (us) with something immaterial (God)? I see what you're saying about the union of two physical substances. But isn't the problem ameliorated by the fact that God isn't physical?

I do actually intend to do better than just respond to your question with more questions, it's just that I don't think I'm feeling the full force of this particular reservation.

I think your question is more than fair; knowing the context within which the question is asked can be as important as the question itself.

It’s not union with God that I object to; but rather the context, or framework, within which that Union takes place. I believe that the very essence of God is unknowable. This is revealed when Moses asked God what his name was. In that time and until the last few hundred years, when you asked a man his name, you were asking what defines you, what is the essence of who you are. As De Maria is fond of pointing out God answered “I AM, I AM”. I think God was telling Moses that He (God) is the essence of essence; something far beyond that which can be known by any intellect. A soul has a spiritual nature; while not known well, it still has a definable nature. To become incorporated in with God (indefinable nature) with the soul of man (definable nature) seems beyond comprehension.

Then too add to this, God’s promises to resurrect us as Christ was resurrected. Thus, as adopted sons of God we will be risen complete man, body and soul. Even still, I can accept the statement that we become members of the essence of God, but only in a metaphorical sense. That the essence of man is so inferior to the essence of God the two couldn’t ever be compatible.

And lastly, the scriptures never speak of union with God in the sense that the identity of the individual is lost. Consequently I view union with God in the sense of those things that make up the identity aren’t erased, but rather re-aligned in ‘union’ with God. Divinization means to make Holy. So in this respect I can say Man is made Holy in Union with God.

Did that make any sense?

JoeT

[Tj3]

Divinization means to make Holy.

div⋅i⋅nize

to make divine; deify.
Also, especially British, div⋅i⋅nise.

Origin:
1650–60; divine + -ize; cf. F diviniser

Related forms:
div⋅i⋅ni⋅za⋅tion, noun
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.
Cite This Source

[JoeT777]

It's my understanding that divinization is understood as supernatural adoption of man by God, i.e. 'sons of God', otherwise known as holiness, coming in union with the Divine Truth. (added - see De Maria's response to the same comment in part 1 of this thread. "2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." )

JoeT

[Tj3]

It’s my understanding that divinization is understood as supernatural adoption of man by God, i.e. ‘sons of God’, otherwise known as holiness, coming in union with the Divine Truth. (added - see De Maria's response to the same comment in part 1 of this thread. "2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." )

JoeT

The definition of divinization is deification, or to deify man.

2 Peter 1:4 merely refers to the indwelling of believers by the Holy Spirit. Completely different things.

[JoeT777]

The definiton of divinization is deification, or to deify man.

2 Peter 1:4 merely refers to the indwelling of believers by the Holy Spirit. Completely different things.

Thank you for your responses, but you misunderstand, I'm not speaking dogmatically. Rather I intended my comments to be understood metaphorically. I was quite aware of the dictionary definition.

JoeT

[Tj3]

Thank you for your responses, but you misunderstand, I'm not speaking dogmatically. Rather I intended my comments to be understood metaphorically. I was quite aware of the dictionary definition.

JoeT

The problem is that many professing Christians actually teach that men become gods based upon this erroneous definition. That is why this point is important.

[Akoue]

The definiton of divinization is deification, or to deify man.

2 Peter 1:4 merely refers to the indwelling of believers by the Holy Spirit. Completely different things.

As has been explained several times, on a couple of threads, "divinization" or "deification" is the typical English translation of the Greek word "theosis". It isn't a great translation, but there is no equivalent word in English. Quoting an English dictionary isn't going to help any of us to understand what theosis is, since English dictionaries give a snapshot of the usage of an English word during a certain period. We are interested in the theology of theosis.

So we are looking for a deeper understanding of these things than can be gleaned from perusing a lexicon.

[Akoue]

Scripture speaks against divinization. Perhaps you are mistaking the indwelling of the Holy Spirit with deification of man.

No. The indwelling of the Spirit happens in this lifetime. Theosis, the topic the rest of us have been discussing, occurs with the union with God at the end of salvation history.

[Akoue]

I think your question is more than fair; knowing the context within which the question is asked can be as important as the question itself.

It’s not union with God that I object to; but rather the context, or framework, within which that Union takes place. I believe that the very essence of God is unknowable. This is revealed when Moses asked God what his name was. In that time and until the last few hundred years, when you asked a man his name, you were asking what defines you, what is the essence of who you are. As De Maria is fond of pointing out God answered “I AM, I AM”. I think God was telling Moses that He (God) is the essence of essence; something far beyond that which can be known by any intellect. A soul has a spiritual nature; while not known well, it still has a definable nature. To become incorporated in with God (indefinable nature) with the soul of man (definable nature) seems beyond comprehension.

Yes, I agree with you. In fact, you have captured something I was myself struggling to articulate. So thanks for that.

Then too add to this, God’s promises to resurrect us as Christ was resurrected. Thus, as adopted sons of God we will be risen complete man, body and soul. Even still, I can accept the statement that we become members of the essence of God, but only in a metaphorical sense. That the essence of man is so inferior to the essence of God the two couldn’t ever be compatible.

It's true, the essence of humanity (we don't want to forget that women will be resurrected too!) is inferior to God. So inferior that, as we are, we cannot withstand the Divine presence. My own thinking has been that this is something that God will overcome so that he can keep his promise to be "all in all". And, as St. Paul says, we are in Christ [en Christo] even now. So the foundation has been laid, the transformation has begun. That transformation will be perfected when we are one with God. Now, I think that this union is not metaphorical, but that isn't to say that I have it figured out. I do think that the Incarnation gives us a clue to the possibility of a thoroughgoing union of the human and the divine.

And lastly, the scriptures never speak of union with God in the sense that the identity of the individual is lost. Consequently I view union with God in the sense of those things that make up the identity aren’t erased, but rather re-aligned in ‘union’ with God. Divinization means to make Holy. So in this respect I can say Man is made Holy in Union with God.

You are absolutely right. The identity of the individual isn't to be annihilated.

I do think that divinization is more than sanctification. To be sanctified is to be made holy. I believe that something more radical, a still more radical transformation, awaits us. In fact, I think that sanctification precedes union. The mystics often talk this way, when they say that purification and illumination precede union. God brings us along by stages.

Did that make any sense?

It made perfect sense. And it was a wonderful post. Thank you for taking the time to present it so clearly. I only hope I've done it some justice.

[Tj3]

No. The indwelling of the Spirit happens in this lifetime. Theosis, the topic the rest of us have been discussing, occurs with the union with God at the end of salvation history.

Ah, then it has nothing to do with 2 Peter 1:4, or the usual verses quoted, John 10:34-5, or Psalm 82, because these are all in our lifetime.

Note that Theosis has within it the intent of the deification of man. I cannot find anything in scripture which says that men become gods after this lifetime either.

Nonetheless, thanks for clarifying your opinion.

[De Maria]

Scripture speaks against divinization. Perhaps you are mistaking the indwelling of the Holy Spirit with deification of man.

Scripture says:

1 John 3
2 Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is.

2 Peter 1 4 By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world.

Romans 8 17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

2 Thessalonians 1 12 That the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God, and of the Lord Jesus Christ.

So, it sounds as though we will be united in some way more closely to Him than we can now imagine. A manner which is described in Scripture as partaking in His Divine nature and being glorified.

[De Maria]

Yes, I agree with you. In fact, you have captured something I was myself struggling to articulate. So thanks for that.



It's true, the essence of humanity (we don't want to forget that women will be resurrected too!) is inferior to God. So inferior that, as we are, we cannot withstand the Divine presence. My own thinking has been that this is something that God will overcome so that he can keep his promise to be "all in all". And, as St. Paul says, we are in Christ [en Christo] even now. So the foundation has been laid, the transformation has begun. That transformation will be perfected when we are one with God. Now, I think that this union is not metaphorical, but that isn't to say that I have it figured out. I do think that the Incarnation gives us a clue to the possibility of a thoroughgoing union of the human and the divine.



You are absolutely right. The identity of the individual isn't to be annihilated.

I do think that divinization is more than sanctification. To be sanctified is to be made holy. I believe that something more radical, a still more radical transformation, awaits us. In fact, I think that sanctification precedes union. The mystics often talk this way, when they say that purification and illumination precede union. God brings us along by stages.



It made perfect sense. And it was a wonderful post. Thank you for taking the time to present it so clearly. I only hope I've done it some justice.

But we must also remember that Scripture says:

1 Corinthians 15

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God: neither shall corruption possess incorruption.

So, the physical will be transformed into the Spiritual.

1 Corinthians 15

44 It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written:

Apocalypse 21

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was gone, and the sea is now no more.

[Tj3]

Scripture says:

1 John 3
2 Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is.

Like, yes - scripture is clear that we shall have glorified bodies. It does not say that we become gods.

2 Peter 1 4 By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world.

Again, perhaps you missed it, but this refers to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which occurs in this lifetime and Akoue said that he was referring to after this lifetime.

Romans 8 17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

Again, does not say that we become gods. Scripture speaks in many places about our adoption as sons. An adoption son does not take on the nature of the Adoptive Father.

2 Thessalonians 1 12 That the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God, and of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus is glorified in us - yes, again nothing about us becoming gods.

So, it sounds as though we will be united in some way more closely to Him than we can now imagine. A manner which is described in Scripture as partaking in His Divine nature and being glorified.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Again, note that being a partaker of the Holy Spirit is here and now, not after this lifetime:

Heb 6:4-7
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
NKJV

[Akoue]

But we must also remember that Scripture says:

1 Corinthians 15

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God: neither shall corruption possess incorruption.

So, the physical will be transformed into the Spiritual.

1 Corinthians 15

44 It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written:

Apocalypse 21

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was gone, and the sea is now no more.

Exactly. We are to undergo further transformation. God brings us to him, in other words.

[Tj3]

Exactly. We are to undergo further transformation. God brings us to him, in other words.

Right - the question is what that transformation is - to make us gods? No.

[Akoue]

Right - the question is what that transformation is - to make us gods? No.

Okay, Tom, we know where you stand.